Overall damage.

[Robby]

Thanks for the break down on all that info. It looks like there is quite a bit of mixed opinions going on here, so it's tough for me to make any clear decision on whether or not to make any slight modifications to anything mentioned here. I read it all pretty quick, but is there any opinions here that are pretty agreed upon across the board that I'm missing? Or is it all pretty varied opinions?

[Flashlight237]

Thanks for the break down on all that info. It looks like there is quite a bit of mixed opinions going on here, so it's tough for me to make any clear decision on whether or not to make any slight modifications to anything mentioned here. I read it all pretty quick, but is there any opinions here that are pretty agreed upon across the board that I'm missing? Or is it all pretty varied opinions?

I'd start with CV's opinion.

[GeraltOfRivia]

Thanks for the break down on all that info. It looks like there is quite a bit of mixed opinions going on here, so it's tough for me to make any clear decision on whether or not to make any slight modifications to anything mentioned here. I read it all pretty quick, but is there any opinions here that are pretty agreed upon across the board that I'm missing? Or is it all pretty varied opinions?

I'd start with CV's opinion.

No offence Flash but you said it yourself that currently in some way you are "out of date" with a gameplay. If you find some time take a look around a map and see for yourself what classes grinds certain mobs and how power balance looks if you compare them.
In some way CV agreeded with me here but, as a funny part he decided to focus only on money power skill, while the whole point was to show how profitable are all gunman passive skill. Money power is only one thing that makes it easier for him to grind, but somehow, being honest, for a certain reason all others decided to skip and do not mention anything about other 2 skills. Clamp trap itself gives no-limit/cooldown drop amount, which in most cases one is enough to insta-kill every mob in game, it's x6.75 base damage mulitiplier, even if we totally skip money power, that gives bigger number than any other skill in game. About coin shot you agreeded with me that this skill is too OP as a straight x3 muiltiplier without limit.
So starting with CV opinion is just like watching trailer.

[CrazyVanilla]

Thanks for the break down on all that info. It looks like there is quite a bit of mixed opinions going on here, so it's tough for me to make any clear decision on whether or not to make any slight modifications to anything mentioned here. I read it all pretty quick, but is there any opinions here that are pretty agreed upon across the board that I'm missing? Or is it all pretty varied opinions?

I'd start with CV's opinion.

No offence Flash but you said it yourself that currently in some way you are "out of date" with a gameplay. If you find some time take a look around a map and see for yourself what classes grinds certain mobs and how power balance looks if you compare them.
In some way CV agreeded with me here but, as a funny part he decided to focus only on money power skill, while the whole point was to show how profitable are all gunman passive skill. Money power is only one thing that makes it easier for him to grind, but somehow, being honest, for a certain reason all others decided to skip and do not mention anything about other 2 skills. Clamp trap itself gives no-limit/cooldown drop amount, which in most cases one is enough to insta-kill every mob in game, it's x6.75 base damage mulitiplier, even if we totally skip money power, that gives bigger number than any other skill in game. About coin shot you agreeded with me that this skill is too OP as a straight x3 muiltiplier without limit.
So starting with CV opinion is just like watching trailer.

Clamp traps can't 1 shot any high level mobs without the use of money power. Though In another thread you were involved with as well I mentioned support for a limit of like 8-10 clamp traps out at once, since they are necessary for cowboy in pvp and are only op in 1 grinding area which people don't seem to be able to comprehend. Also, coinshot I really don't think is all that op without factoring in money power like you mention. Cowboys base damage is much lower than other classes, and they don't have the ability to 1 shot things (without the use of money power) like archer and warrior (and sometimes mages clouds) can.

If I were to outline my general viewpoint that could use some balancing it would basically be this:

Cowboy -> Best class by far for grinding
Cowboy -> Useless in pvp against anyone with any degree of poison resistance

Warrior -> Best class by far for pvp, defense builds are literally immortal and will only get worse with the new sets and shield skills

Whipmaster -> Sucks for everything, I don't even consider it a class at this point. Make tip damage 4 or 5x base damage and some more skills please. Whipmaster should be able to 2, at max 3 hit (with tip hits) an enemy of its target level if its wearing proper gear and has proper stats. If this can't be done, the class is useless for grinding basically, which is how it is now.

Archer and Mage -> Seems to be alright IMO. Archer got a big pvp nerf with resistance added, but they are still useable unlike cowboy.

[cinos]

I'd start with CV's opinion.

No offence Flash but you said it yourself that currently in some way you are "out of date" with a gameplay. If you find some time take a look around a map and see for yourself what classes grinds certain mobs and how power balance looks if you compare them.
In some way CV agreeded with me here but, as a funny part he decided to focus only on money power skill, while the whole point was to show how profitable are all gunman passive skill. Money power is only one thing that makes it easier for him to grind, but somehow, being honest, for a certain reason all others decided to skip and do not mention anything about other 2 skills. Clamp trap itself gives no-limit/cooldown drop amount, which in most cases one is enough to insta-kill every mob in game, it's x6.75 base damage mulitiplier, even if we totally skip money power, that gives bigger number than any other skill in game. About coin shot you agreeded with me that this skill is too OP as a straight x3 muiltiplier without limit.
So starting with CV opinion is just like watching trailer.

Clamp traps can't 1 shot any high level mobs without the use of money power. Though In another thread you were involved with as well I mentioned support for a limit of like 8-10 clamp traps out at once, since they are necessary for cowboy in pvp and are only op in 1 grinding area which people don't seem to be able to comprehend. Also, coinshot I really don't think is all that op without factoring in money power like you mention. Cowboys base damage is much lower than other classes, and they don't have the ability to 1 shot things (without the use of money power) like archer and warrior (and sometimes mages clouds) can.

If I were to outline my general viewpoint that could use some balancing it would basically be this:

Cowboy -> Best class by far for grinding
Cowboy -> Useless in pvp against anyone with any degree of poison resistance

Warrior -> Best class by far for pvp, defense builds are literally immortal and will only get worse with the new sets and shield skills

Whipmaster -> Sucks for everything, I don't even consider it a class at this point. Make tip damage 4 or 5x base damage and some more skills please. Whipmaster should be able to 2, at max 3 hit (with tip hits) an enemy of its target level if its wearing proper gear and has proper stats. If this can't be done, the class is useless for grinding basically, which is how it is now.

Archer and Mage -> Seems to be alright IMO. Archer got a big pvp nerf with resistance added, but they are still useable unlike cowboy.

okay gonna comment on this right now, warrior defense builds are beatable, you just gotta try wearing out their rage and kill them that way. There's not even much of a risk going close because defense builds turn your strength into that of a bolemic twelve year old, which, atleast in concept, makes strategies like this work. Just keep your distance and start pwning once the funny defense aura is gone...

obviously they'd work better if POISON wasn't so bad now but nontheless, power smashing, hoarding or perhaps mage meleeing-breathing + clouds can kill a defense warrior who just ran out of rage. They are either not immortal, or I'm just that cool...and yes, it works for archers too, not a warrior v warrior exclusive.

[CrazyVanilla]

No offence Flash but you said it yourself that currently in some way you are "out of date" with a gameplay. If you find some time take a look around a map and see for yourself what classes grinds certain mobs and how power balance looks if you compare them.
In some way CV agreeded with me here but, as a funny part he decided to focus only on money power skill, while the whole point was to show how profitable are all gunman passive skill. Money power is only one thing that makes it easier for him to grind, but somehow, being honest, for a certain reason all others decided to skip and do not mention anything about other 2 skills. Clamp trap itself gives no-limit/cooldown drop amount, which in most cases one is enough to insta-kill every mob in game, it's x6.75 base damage mulitiplier, even if we totally skip money power, that gives bigger number than any other skill in game. About coin shot you agreeded with me that this skill is too OP as a straight x3 muiltiplier without limit.
So starting with CV opinion is just like watching trailer.

Clamp traps can't 1 shot any high level mobs without the use of money power. Though In another thread you were involved with as well I mentioned support for a limit of like 8-10 clamp traps out at once, since they are necessary for cowboy in pvp and are only op in 1 grinding area which people don't seem to be able to comprehend. Also, coinshot I really don't think is all that op without factoring in money power like you mention. Cowboys base damage is much lower than other classes, and they don't have the ability to 1 shot things (without the use of money power) like archer and warrior (and sometimes mages clouds) can.

If I were to outline my general viewpoint that could use some balancing it would basically be this:

Cowboy -> Best class by far for grinding
Cowboy -> Useless in pvp against anyone with any degree of poison resistance

Warrior -> Best class by far for pvp, defense builds are literally immortal and will only get worse with the new sets and shield skills

Whipmaster -> Sucks for everything, I don't even consider it a class at this point. Make tip damage 4 or 5x base damage and some more skills please. Whipmaster should be able to 2, at max 3 hit (with tip hits) an enemy of its target level if its wearing proper gear and has proper stats. If this can't be done, the class is useless for grinding basically, which is how it is now.

Archer and Mage -> Seems to be alright IMO. Archer got a big pvp nerf with resistance added, but they are still useable unlike cowboy.

okay gonna comment on this right now, warrior defense builds are beatable, you just gotta try wearing out their rage and kill them that way. There's not even much of a risk going close because defense builds turn your strength into that of a bolemic twelve year old, which, atleast in concept, makes strategies like this work. Just keep your distance and start pwning once the funny defense aura is gone...

obviously they'd work better if POISON wasn't so bad now but nontheless, power smashing, hoarding or perhaps mage meleeing-breathing + clouds can kill a defense warrior who just ran out of rage. They are either not immortal, or I'm just that cool...and yes, it works for archers too, not a warrior v warrior exclusive.

Rage has no cooldown so you'd basically have to 1 tap them at the perfect time to do this because they can just reactivate rage as soon as it wears off, which is basically impossible unless the player is a total idiot. Plus you have to get very lucky to 1 tap a player with 120-150k armor (no rage) anyways. I'm not talking normal warriors, I'm talking warriors with max skills who have 100-150+ defense stat + shield + H3 set with 300+ HP. Specifically a build meant for pvp, like a less extreme version of -ZERO-. I don't think pvp should rely on luck + unskillful user in order to kill them.

Poison and Ice would normally balance these builds out (bypassing defense and lowering defense respectively), but since runes on weapons are useless now (and still will be after the boost coming in the update since you'll still be able to 100% resist with a shield) theres nothing to help balance these builds out. Defense is more OP than ever, and damage is lower than ever right now.

Btw, my raged powersmash does actually 0 damage to -ZERO- with his build, like yes 0, I can't even stunlock him because powersmash doesn't stun when you don't deal any damage. Granted I don't have a damage build, but I still have 250k damage output with rage (first number of the span). I literally have no way to deal any damage to him. I know his build is extreme, but it's not very extreme to do his build in say half, which would still mean you have to be horribly unskillful to die. Not to mention new sets coming which means defense will be even higher, plus new shield skills which raises your HP and deflects attacks.

[GeraltOfRivia]

Clamp traps can't 1 shot any high level mobs without the use of money power. Though In another thread you were involved with as well I mentioned support for a limit of like 8-10 clamp traps out at once, since they are necessary for cowboy in pvp and are only op in 1 grinding area which people don't seem to be able to comprehend. Also, coinshot I really don't think is all that op without factoring in money power like you mention. Cowboys base damage is much lower than other classes, and they don't have the ability to 1 shot things (without the use of money power) like archer and warrior (and sometimes mages clouds) can.

If I were to outline my general viewpoint that could use some balancing it would basically be this:

Cowboy -> Best class by far for grinding
Cowboy -> Useless in pvp against anyone with any degree of poison resistance

Warrior -> Best class by far for pvp, defense builds are literally immortal and will only get worse with the new sets and shield skills

Whipmaster -> Sucks for everything, I don't even consider it a class at this point. Make tip damage 4 or 5x base damage and some more skills please. Whipmaster should be able to 2, at max 3 hit (with tip hits) an enemy of its target level if its wearing proper gear and has proper stats. If this can't be done, the class is useless for grinding basically, which is how it is now.

Archer and Mage -> Seems to be alright IMO. Archer got a big pvp nerf with resistance added, but they are still useable unlike cowboy.

Gotta say you are really persistent claiming gunman is fine as he is now. But point by point. Clamps with money power are able to one shot current best mob Scrap bot, but in fact they shouldn't since it is passive skill(any other class don't have such a powerfull skill, they usually do less than 100% of base power).About limit them-yes i agree, but also make a delay between drops. Coin shot is a straight x3 mutiplier so even without money power it is OP-gives gunman tripple damage each shot and with his shoot speed that makes huge difference. Now best part-you claim gunman have lowest base damage so lets compare it to archer(raw un-runed power):
Mush plate bow: 131(two handed)
Pure bone magnum: 135( two handed)
Pure bone hemlock: 99(one handed) so as you can use 2 of them we get 198
Now every gunman uses Pure bone hemlock to double rune damage and get total damage bigger than with Pure bone magnum.
Even if we add to it set pieces power we get:
Archer: 131+16+16+16+8=188
Gunman: 99x2 +14+14+14+7=247
Now besides small differences in upgrading and backpacks gunman still have bigger damage output than archer. So am i missing something here or your statement is a lie.
Next thing-yes archers are able to one shot many things with arrow hoard( tho usually on scrap bots in most cases it requires to have fully maxed bow with all existing runes ), but it requres to be very close to every enemy since it spreads.
Now is it really that gunman is useless in PvP since he have bigger output damage in total-one gun is weaker, but have you ever seen gunman using only one?.
At last general overviev:
Gunman-best, currently overpowered class for grinding.
Mage-not bad at PvP but not so good for grinding best mobs(really i can barely see any mage on scrap bots or azulongs).
Archer-as for me this is one of the best ballanced class-best for farming, good for grinding, can handle in PvP.
Warrior-yep-best at PvP(honestly this is a tank class so he should be) but as for grinding is kinda good only on small areas(on any wide area with spreaded mobs he just sucks).
Whipmaster-fully agreement with your words.

[CrazyVanilla]

Ok, I'm going to just skip some of what you said because I don't think you understand what I said properly.

I don't think you understand the fact of bulk damage > DPS in this game. When classes like archer and warrior can 1 hit things, what is even the point of having a higher DPS when you can't 1 hit? Do you see any archer grinding scrap bots using 1 arrow? No, they always use hoard. You see warriors using normal attacks to grind scrap bots? Very rarely, its usually ninja slash or power smash, and always with rage, because 1 hitting something is FAR better than killing it over time. When grinding alone it doesn't matter much, but when grinding with other players it matters greatly.

If I as a warrior go grind with a cowboy at scrap bots who is using coinshot, if they are not using money power, or even if they are but just mildly, I will get more exp than they will because I can steal majority of their kills, and me having to be close to the enemy makes me closer to the next enemy then they are. As an archer you can do the same thing if you grind correctly. The issue comes with the massively high damage outputs from money power, which will likely balance itself out over time and carry big risk. Right now everything is just weak and presents little to no risk. I'm not saying cowboy is perfectly fine for grinding, but the problem won't get solved if you don't implement the correct solution, which requires you to identify the correct cause of the problem, which you seem to be bypassing, talking about coinshot and traps when they are only OP because of the insanely high damage outputs of money power.

About clamp traps, I'll say the same thing I've been saying for a long time now and for some reason people can't comprehend. They are OP for literally 1 area, because it's a small area with fast spawn rates. Go try using clamp traps in area #69 or #70 or #72. They are nowhere near OP. It just so happens that for now that area is the top area, but a new area is coming next update so it that won't be the case anymore. As long as areas remain wider and spreadout areas like the ones I mentioned or like Azulongs and others, clamp traps will not be OP at all. I do not support nerfing something because it's OP for literally only 1 area, that's how balance is ruined. That being said I do support the 8-10 limit because it just makes sense not to be able to stack them up at pvp entrance and stuff while not removing their intended function.

Relating to pvp, no offense but you don't pvp, so please don't try to keep saying I'm wrong about cowboy being useless in pvp when I literally pvped all the time before it died because of resistance being added, and I was a cowboy for a lot of that time. Cinos, who is another active pvper, says the same thing and so do many others. This is just another example of you not understanding that bulk damage > DPS in this game. It applies to both pvp and pvm.

[cinos]

Oh wow almost like what we all want is for runes to work and balance the game WOW I wonder if rune resistance was a mistake :>

[TheWood]

Oh wow almost like what we all want is for runes to work and balance the game WOW I wonder if rune resistance was a mistake :>

Of course yes.