Some PVP Balancing

[Flashlight237]

As far as I can tell, basically just cinos cared about PVP, but that don't mean it shouldn't be tweaked. It actually does. Might as well throw in my fair share of tweaks here.

1. Nerf Protection Field

Perhaps the biggest roadblock in PVP as far as we know is Protection Field. It's stats currently are both archaic (a remnant from when people saw Protection Field as a useless skill) and overpowered. I did the math, assuming a maximum of 695 HP from both Protection and Defensive Field and a maximum of 32% defense, I calculated a relative HP of 222.4, which is higher than even my high-arse HP of 179. Sure, Arrow Hoard still isn't nerfed (we're still trying!: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4730 ), but as it stands, even Arrow Hoard might seem underwhelming compared to Protection Field in PVP. More details can be found in Noire's thread on the subject, both in the OP AND in my response.: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4952

2. Raise PvP Damage

I believe PvP's damage formula works like this.:

(Weapon Damage*Player Equipment Total)/Armor*5*random(0.7, 1.3)

Let's have it as something like this:

(Weapon Damage*Player Equipment Total)/Armor*10*random(0.7, 1.3)

Now what I'm trying to do here is go for a damage formula that accounts for HP regeneration (which happens once every five seconds) and the fact that players are, eh, most likely gonna chow down on whatever food they may have at the time. This will wind up being at odds with skills, especially since we're still trying to nerf Arrow Hoard, but what else are we gonna try and do here? Turn off Regen in PvP?

3. King of the Hill

Okay, so that's a work in progress. Since this is meant to be more of a minigame, I'll provide some ideas for it.

1. Safe zones. These are zones that players will respawn in in the King of the Hill area. There, players are unable to be damaged or killed. This should prevent players from being kicked out of the minigame while also reducing the likelihood of spawn-kills. Believe me, if you played ANY multiplayer game, you would know that NOBODY likes getting spawn-killed.

2. A timer. Of course.

3. A trigger. How will the mini-game be triggered? With the push of a button? With a player tally? What?

4. The Pit

Put a fence around that thing's entrance! Oh, and put in a teleporter NPC (kinda like Cledge near the Nature Factory roadblock) that will ask you if you WANT to go into the pit or not. Players being pushed into the pit when they didn't ask for it isn't really a good look for The Pit. Besides that, I think we're good when it comes to The Pit.

5. Capture the Flag

I think this is a fairly common PvP deal, but basically, two teams (Red vs Blue) will have to go about grabbing some flags. Team members, regardless of whether they're on the same guild as each other or not, won't be able to hurt each other. Aside from that, the same things for KotH apply here.

1. Safe zones. Obviously the colored team bases will serve as Safe Zones here. There, players are unable to be damaged or killed. This should prevent players from being kicked out of the minigame while also reducing the likelihood of spawn-kills. Believe me, if you played ANY multiplayer game, you would know that NOBODY likes getting spawn-killed.

2. A timer. Again, of course.

3. A trigger. How will the mini-game be triggered? With the push of a button? With a player tally? What?

But yeah, there's that.

[noire]

As far as I can tell, basically just cinos cared about PVP, but that don't mean it shouldn't be tweaked. It actually does. Might as well throw in my fair share of tweaks here.

Boi you forgot 'bout me :c

1. Nerf Protection Field

Perhaps the biggest roadblock in PVP as far as we know is Protection Field. It's stats currently are both archaic (a remnant from when people saw Protection Field as a useless skill) and overpowered. I did the math, assuming a maximum of 695 HP from both Protection and Defensive Field and a maximum of 32% defense, I calculated a relative HP of 222.4, which is higher than even my high-arse HP of 179. Sure, Arrow Hoard still isn't nerfed (we're still trying!: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4730 ), but as it stands, even Arrow Hoard might seem underwhelming compared to Protection Field in PVP. More details can be found in Noire's thread on the subject, both in the OP AND in my response.: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4952

An increased mana pool consumption when casting arrow hoard is more acceptable than having delay between casts.
Current MP consumption when casting arrow hoard is 10 MP. [Maxed stage]
Making the MP consumption of arrow hoard to 25 would be acceptable. Archers make good money to the point that they have spares, having this instead of the arrow hoard recast delay would also question their position on the economy.
Spamming would be expensive and Economy monopoly would be cured, BAM!

In the case where one will invest points on MP instead of class stat, they would then have lower dmg output.
Using sacrifices would be silly, few risk it and later regret. [that includes me]

3. King of the Hill

Okay, so that's a work in progress. Since this is meant to be more of a minigame, I'll provide some ideas for it.

Fr, when I highlight the area to see it's details it was named as King of the Hill.
Turns out to be just another pvp area with a Hill on it.

PvP areas now are always empty, perhaps players thought there is no merit in going.

How about placing an EXP field on top of the "hill" that gives really good EXP per minute. 3000 EXP per minute would be better.
Also when entering King of the Hill area, a notification of who is currently occupying the Hill would be pinned above screen.
[Changes when a change is present.]

Also no way botters would be able to "EXP farm" this concept. I'll be fudging there making sure I'm the one who gets those EXP. Same goes for other players.

4. The Pit

Put a fence around that thing's entrance! Oh, and put in a teleporter NPC (kinda like Cledge near the Nature Factory roadblock) that will ask you if you WANT to go into the pit or not. Players being pushed into the pit when they didn't ask for it isn't really a good look for The Pit. Besides that, I think we're good when it comes to The Pit

A teleporter NPC removes the thrill of the pit. A bigger signboard at the mouth of the pit would be better.

5. Capture the Flag

I think this is a fairly common PvP deal, but basically, two teams (Red vs Blue) will have to go about grabbing some flags.

I heard guild flags are coming, this would be great concept. A mini game where guilds would protect/ steal flags and bring it to a "base".
When successfully capture "guild reputation" would be gained. Something for the eye at the leaderboards/ HoF.

Believe me, if you played ANY multiplayer game, you would know that NOBODY likes getting spawn-killed.

Yes I've been at the PIT. I relogged and got spawn-killed losing 10m total value [Just sharing an experience.]

PIT area should have multiple and random spawn points. I swear it was a real headache when I was spawn-killed.

[cinos]

>Nerf protection field
yes
>King of the Hill and CTF
Subjective, I don't PARTICULARLY care for those as I'm more into the classic free for all setup, but whatevs, it could be a thing.
>The Pit
No, we don't need to make it safer. Why? Well, first off, if someone is afk around the pit then it's their fault for being so close to such a dangerous area and going afk. Second, a teleport npc is just...well, a bad idea! It removes the spooky feel of THE PIT, this hellhole (literally) where if you go inside you're gonna go through heck and back if you wanna get out alive. Fences would make the pit less scary and LESS convenient to get inside! Seriously, it's not even easy to push someone in the pit due to the game's netcode, why should we add fences and remove the thrill of the pit just so we can make it even EASIER for them to not get involved? Make the sign bigger, I dunno! But don't make the pit less cool by adding teleport npcs or whatever. It's a flaming hole on the ground where people jump in and die! We have a sign, it's VERY far away from the main path, and if people don't know how to read or use hindsight then it's not OUR problem if they still think it's safe to be around, it's theirs.
>damage formula
pfft I dunno, maybe we should first improve how the game sends damage to players far away from you, especially a problem with gunmen since MOST of our opponents are far away. If they're from the edge of the screen they simply won't receive any damage. Very annoying when it happens...

also, fix the warrior, that is all ;]

[cinos]

As far as I can tell, basically just cinos cared about PVP, but that don't mean it shouldn't be tweaked. It actually does. Might as well throw in my fair share of tweaks here.

Boi you forgot 'bout me :c

1. Nerf Protection Field

Perhaps the biggest roadblock in PVP as far as we know is Protection Field. It's stats currently are both archaic (a remnant from when people saw Protection Field as a useless skill) and overpowered. I did the math, assuming a maximum of 695 HP from both Protection and Defensive Field and a maximum of 32% defense, I calculated a relative HP of 222.4, which is higher than even my high-arse HP of 179. Sure, Arrow Hoard still isn't nerfed (we're still trying!: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4730 ), but as it stands, even Arrow Hoard might seem underwhelming compared to Protection Field in PVP. More details can be found in Noire's thread on the subject, both in the OP AND in my response.: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4952

An increased mana pool consumption when casting arrow hoard is more acceptable than having delay between casts.
Current MP consumption when casting arrow hoard is 10 MP. [Maxed stage]
Making the MP consumption of arrow hoard to 25 would be acceptable. Archers make good money to the point that they have spares, having this instead of the arrow hoard recast delay would also question their position on the economy.
Spamming would be expensive and Economy monopoly would be cured, BAM!

In the case where one will invest points on MP instead of class stat, they would then have lower dmg output.
Using sacrifices would be silly, few risk it and later regret. [that includes me]

3. King of the Hill

Okay, so that's a work in progress. Since this is meant to be more of a minigame, I'll provide some ideas for it.

Fr, when I highlight the area to see it's details it was named as King of the Hill.
Turns out to be just another pvp area with a Hill on it.

PvP areas now are always empty, perhaps players thought there is no merit in going.

How about placing an EXP field on top of the "hill" that gives really good EXP per minute. 3000 EXP per minute would be better.
Also when entering King of the Hill area, a notification of who is currently occupying the Hill would be pinned above screen.
[Changes when a change is present.]

Also no way botters would be able to "EXP farm" this concept. I'll be fudging there making sure I'm the one who gets those EXP. Same goes for other players.

4. The Pit

Put a fence around that thing's entrance! Oh, and put in a teleporter NPC (kinda like Cledge near the Nature Factory roadblock) that will ask you if you WANT to go into the pit or not. Players being pushed into the pit when they didn't ask for it isn't really a good look for The Pit. Besides that, I think we're good when it comes to The Pit

A teleporter NPC removes the thrill of the pit. A bigger signboard at the mouth of the pit would be better.

5. Capture the Flag

I think this is a fairly common PvP deal, but basically, two teams (Red vs Blue) will have to go about grabbing some flags.

I heard guild flags are coming, this would be great concept. A mini game where guilds would protect/ steal flags and bring it to a "base".
When successfully capture "guild reputation" would be gained. Something for the eye at the leaderboards/ HoF.

Believe me, if you played ANY multiplayer game, you would know that NOBODY likes getting spawn-killed.

Yes I've been at the PIT. I relogged and got spawn-killed losing 10m total value [Just sharing an experience.]

PIT area should have multiple and random spawn points. I swear it was a real headache when I was spawn-killed.

How about placing an EXP field on top of the "hill" that gives really good EXP per minute. 3000 EXP per minute would be better.

I'm not one to complain about grinding being made less tedious but man I wonder how that would turn out.

[Flashlight237]

>The Pit
No, we don't need to make it safer. Why? Well, first off, if someone is afk around the pit then it's their fault for being so close to such a dangerous area and going afk. Second, a teleport npc is just...well, a bad idea! It removes the spooky feel of THE PIT, this hellhole (literally) where if you go inside you're gonna go through heck and back if you wanna get out alive. Fences would make the pit less scary and LESS convenient to get inside! Seriously, it's not even easy to push someone in the pit due to the game's netcode, why should we add fences and remove the thrill of the pit just so we can make it even EASIER for them to not get involved? Make the sign bigger, I dunno! But don't make the pit less cool by adding teleport npcs or whatever. It's a flaming hole on the ground where people jump in and die! We have a sign, it's VERY far away from the main path, and if people don't know how to read or use hindsight then it's not OUR problem if they still think it's safe to be around, it's theirs.

Actually, no, that's wrong. There's a good reason why there are "Are you sure?" notifications in games for various things ranging from mundane things like selling items to risky things like erasing your game data: to allow players to think about their choices before making them. The whole idea of putting a fence around the Pit and putting a teleporting NPC next to said fence is to serve as a physical "Are you sure?" notification, especially given the Pit is nearly a physical equivalent to selecting the "Erase Data" option. Every risk involves an element of choice, which I'd rather give players than take from them. I don't give a rat's @$$ about false perceptions of "thrill" if they go against common-sense game design practices such as "Are you sure?" notifications.

[cinos]

>The Pit
No, we don't need to make it safer. Why? Well, first off, if someone is afk around the pit then it's their fault for being so close to such a dangerous area and going afk. Second, a teleport npc is just...well, a bad idea! It removes the spooky feel of THE PIT, this hellhole (literally) where if you go inside you're gonna go through heck and back if you wanna get out alive. Fences would make the pit less scary and LESS convenient to get inside! Seriously, it's not even easy to push someone in the pit due to the game's netcode, why should we add fences and remove the thrill of the pit just so we can make it even EASIER for them to not get involved? Make the sign bigger, I dunno! But don't make the pit less cool by adding teleport npcs or whatever. It's a flaming hole on the ground where people jump in and die! We have a sign, it's VERY far away from the main path, and if people don't know how to read or use hindsight then it's not OUR problem if they still think it's safe to be around, it's theirs.

Actually, no, that's wrong. There's a good reason why there are "Are you sure?" notifications in games for various things ranging from mundane things like selling items to risky things like erasing your game data: to allow players to think about their choices before making them. The whole idea of putting a fence around the Pit and putting a teleporting NPC next to said fence is to serve as a physical "Are you sure?" notification, especially given the Pit is nearly a physical equivalent to selecting the "Erase Data" option. Every risk involves an element of choice, which I'd rather give players than take from them. I don't give a rat's @$$ about false perceptions of "thrill" if they go against common-sense game design practices such as "Are you sure?" notifications.

Dude, they walk up quite a road to the pit, they can READ, and we can ASSUME they have the common sense to not be around the death hazard. There's this discussion in game design, especially MMOs, convenience vs experience. A good example from a non MMO is Majora's Mask 3D, everything is made easier, more "accessible", but in turn a lot of the creative game design is replaced with standard mechanics found in literally every other zelda game. It completely misses the point, it removes so much for "accessibility" that the point of the original mechanic is lost to time. How much can we cater to people who probably say they got "scammed" at the pit, until the pit inevitably becomes less cool?

[ImCrazy2]

Nerfing the shield is good but that would make mages WAYYYYY more weaker in pvp since archers and gunners do so good with their range. I know warriors dont have anything but dont make mages weaker :<

[cinos]

Nerfing the shield is good but that would make mages WAYYYYY more weaker in pvp since archers and gunners do so good with their range. I know warriors dont have anything but dont make mages weaker :<

Hey the mp bubbles are still pretty much BRUTAL so hey you got that going for ya alongside clouds for a decently diverse playstyle. Gunmen need grenades to be aimed with the mouse and archers need nothing but to have arrow hoard nerfed, seriously they already have homing arrows and a shield.

[ImCrazy2]

We should just make the other classes as strong as mages so the game would be balanced. Not make stronger classes weaker to make it balanced...

[Flashlight237]

>The Pit
No, we don't need to make it safer. Why? Well, first off, if someone is afk around the pit then it's their fault for being so close to such a dangerous area and going afk. Second, a teleport npc is just...well, a bad idea! It removes the spooky feel of THE PIT, this hellhole (literally) where if you go inside you're gonna go through heck and back if you wanna get out alive. Fences would make the pit less scary and LESS convenient to get inside! Seriously, it's not even easy to push someone in the pit due to the game's netcode, why should we add fences and remove the thrill of the pit just so we can make it even EASIER for them to not get involved? Make the sign bigger, I dunno! But don't make the pit less cool by adding teleport npcs or whatever. It's a flaming hole on the ground where people jump in and die! We have a sign, it's VERY far away from the main path, and if people don't know how to read or use hindsight then it's not OUR problem if they still think it's safe to be around, it's theirs.

Actually, no, that's wrong. There's a good reason why there are "Are you sure?" notifications in games for various things ranging from mundane things like selling items to risky things like erasing your game data: to allow players to think about their choices before making them. The whole idea of putting a fence around the Pit and putting a teleporting NPC next to said fence is to serve as a physical "Are you sure?" notification, especially given the Pit is nearly a physical equivalent to selecting the "Erase Data" option. Every risk involves an element of choice, which I'd rather give players than take from them. I don't give a rat's @$$ about false perceptions of "thrill" if they go against common-sense game design practices such as "Are you sure?" notifications.

Dude, they walk up quite a road to the pit, they can READ, and we can ASSUME they have the common sense to not be around the death hazard. There's this discussion in game design, especially MMOs, convenience vs experience. A good example from a non MMO is Majora's Mask 3D, everything is made easier, more "accessible", but in turn a lot of the creative game design is replaced with standard mechanics found in literally every other zelda game. It completely misses the point, it removes so much for "accessibility" that the point of the original mechanic is lost to time. How much can we cater to people who probably say they got "scammed" at the pit, until the pit inevitably becomes less cool?

I'll answer your question with a simple answer: Only what is necessary to get rid of the unnecessary salt and give players a sense of choice. In this case, it's actually adding the physical "Are you sure?" notification I've mentioned before and nothing else. Any less and it would feel as if not enough was done, and any more than that and convenience would lead to inconvenience. Kind of an oxymoron, but yes, that is possible. Bear in mind, I try for both convenience and experience (while you can argue that I can't play both sides, it kinda feels like you have to); with convenience it's wanting an Arrow Hoard nerf, and with experience it's coming up with a way to nerf Arrow Hoard that doesn't deter their overall experience too badly (dynamically-charged Arrow Hoard). In the Pit's case, what I'm trying to do here is put an "Are you sure?" notification while at the same time leaving the Pit's ruleset alone.