Overall damage.

[GeraltOfRivia]

Cowboy is definitely the best class for grinding because of money power, however I do have a bit of a rebuttal for you. I don't totally disagree with you here, but I more so think the problem here will mostly be fixed over time. Let me explain.

The way money power works, it is not exponential. It gives a bigger damage boost at the start (the first say 1m of money you are carrying), then as you keep carrying more and more money, the damage boost becomes less and less.

For example, back when I was cowboy, I would usually carry about 1m when going to grind. My base damage (no money power, and using the 1st number in the damage range), was about 28k. With carrying that 1m, it would be boosted close to 50k, about an 80% increase. Now keep that in mind, because here is a screenshot of me carrying 50m coins. https://gyazo.com/4e8f62d10a26169ae701c735d559bd0f

If you notice, my damage is now only 167k, which is a lot, but I am carrying 50,000,000 coins, which is a lot of money. It also shows the drastic decrease in damage boost the more money you are carrying, since if it was an 80% boost for every 1m you carry, my damage would be close to 1.2m damage rather than the 167k, which is a pretty massive difference. Also look at my defense, with carrying no money at all my defense output was normally about 64k, with carrying the 50m it dropped all the way down to 10k, which is quite the risk to take when grinding at that point I would say, especially when there are more threatening enemies available.

Now, why do I think this will mostly fix itself over time? Well, right now enemies are pretty weak and unthreatening, making 100k+ damage output insanely OP, which you can currently get without carrying THAT much money as a cowboy or taking that much risk. However as enemies continue to increase in strength and difficulty, cowboys will need to carry more and more money to keep up, which in turn will lower their defense lower and lower, and present a very large risk. I mean, when grinding something like znakes, or heck even scrap bots, 10k def with 300 hp is manageable if you can kill them quickly. But what happens when theres an enemy 5x stronger than scrap bots? No way you can grind those things with only 10k def. Thats kinda what I'm getting at - as enemies get stronger money power will require the players to carry more money which in turn will in itself nerf money power naturally.

Not gonna argue at all with your logic but giving exact numbers i am gonna show you why no matter how strong mobs will be, gunman skills are way too OP. In the future with better mobs carrying 1M will be like nothing and view of 80% damage increase would be heck of a boost, without loosing much deffense. In other words, with better mobs you get significant boost for a low cost.So who said you need to carry a lot of money to boost up yourself? Imagine earning 1M in an hour-would you care if you loose it from time to time just to boost yoursel up by those 80% just to farm 2-times stronger mobs?. Also if the buff gets lower despite carrying money would you risk having them way more than needed to farm? Don't think so. Not even gonna explain how this would look with clam tarps and coin skill again.

[cinos]

Cowboy is definitely the best class for grinding because of money power, however I do have a bit of a rebuttal for you. I don't totally disagree with you here, but I more so think the problem here will mostly be fixed over time. Let me explain.

The way money power works, it is not exponential. It gives a bigger damage boost at the start (the first say 1m of money you are carrying), then as you keep carrying more and more money, the damage boost becomes less and less.

For example, back when I was cowboy, I would usually carry about 1m when going to grind. My base damage (no money power, and using the 1st number in the damage range), was about 28k. With carrying that 1m, it would be boosted close to 50k, about an 80% increase. Now keep that in mind, because here is a screenshot of me carrying 50m coins. https://gyazo.com/4e8f62d10a26169ae701c735d559bd0f

If you notice, my damage is now only 167k, which is a lot, but I am carrying 50,000,000 coins, which is a lot of money. It also shows the drastic decrease in damage boost the more money you are carrying, since if it was an 80% boost for every 1m you carry, my damage would be close to 1.2m damage rather than the 167k, which is a pretty massive difference. Also look at my defense, with carrying no money at all my defense output was normally about 64k, with carrying the 50m it dropped all the way down to 10k, which is quite the risk to take when grinding at that point I would say, especially when there are more threatening enemies available.

Now, why do I think this will mostly fix itself over time? Well, right now enemies are pretty weak and unthreatening, making 100k+ damage output insanely OP, which you can currently get without carrying THAT much money as a cowboy or taking that much risk. However as enemies continue to increase in strength and difficulty, cowboys will need to carry more and more money to keep up, which in turn will lower their defense lower and lower, and present a very large risk. I mean, when grinding something like znakes, or heck even scrap bots, 10k def with 300 hp is manageable if you can kill them quickly. But what happens when theres an enemy 5x stronger than scrap bots? No way you can grind those things with only 10k def. Thats kinda what I'm getting at - as enemies get stronger money power will require the players to carry more money which in turn will in itself nerf money power naturally.

Not gonna argue at all with your logic but giving exact numbers i am gonna show you why no matter how strong mobs will be, gunman skills are way too OP. In the future with better mobs carrying 1M will be like nothing and view of 80% damage increase would be heck of a boost, without loosing much deffense. In other words, with better mobs you get significant boost for a low cost.So who said you need to carry a lot of money to boost up yourself? Imagine earning 1M in an hour-would you care if you loose it from time to time just to boost yoursel up by those 80% just to farm 2-times stronger mobs?. Also if the buff gets lower despite carrying money would you risk having them way more than needed to farm? Don't think so. Not even gonna explain how this would look with clam tarps and coin skill again.

meh

[TheWood]

Cowboy is definitely the best class for grinding because of money power, however I do have a bit of a rebuttal for you. I don't totally disagree with you here, but I more so think the problem here will mostly be fixed over time. Let me explain.

The way money power works, it is not exponential. It gives a bigger damage boost at the start (the first say 1m of money you are carrying), then as you keep carrying more and more money, the damage boost becomes less and less.

For example, back when I was cowboy, I would usually carry about 1m when going to grind. My base damage (no money power, and using the 1st number in the damage range), was about 28k. With carrying that 1m, it would be boosted close to 50k, about an 80% increase. Now keep that in mind, because here is a screenshot of me carrying 50m coins. https://gyazo.com/4e8f62d10a26169ae701c735d559bd0f

If you notice, my damage is now only 167k, which is a lot, but I am carrying 50,000,000 coins, which is a lot of money. It also shows the drastic decrease in damage boost the more money you are carrying, since if it was an 80% boost for every 1m you carry, my damage would be close to 1.2m damage rather than the 167k, which is a pretty massive difference. Also look at my defense, with carrying no money at all my defense output was normally about 64k, with carrying the 50m it dropped all the way down to 10k, which is quite the risk to take when grinding at that point I would say, especially when there are more threatening enemies available.

Now, why do I think this will mostly fix itself over time? Well, right now enemies are pretty weak and unthreatening, making 100k+ damage output insanely OP, which you can currently get without carrying THAT much money as a cowboy. However as enemies continue to increase in strength and difficulty, cowboys will need to carry more and more money to keep up, which in turn will lower their defense lower and lower, and present a very large risk. I mean, when grinding something like znakes, or heck even scrap bots, 10k def with 300 hp is manageable if you can kill them quickly. But what happens when theres an enemy 5x stronger than scrap bots? No way you can grind those things with only 10k def. Thats kinda what I'm getting at - as enemies get stronger money power will require the players to carry more money which in turn will in itself nerf money power naturally.

aka, tl;dr, playing the game long enough will pretty much force people to not turn their brain off, is that what you're saying?

I mean I already think 10k defense requires focusing on the game to not lose hours of progress, so what you are saying is basically the same but better.

Basically yes. I mean, there will continue to be new sets and higher leveled players which will continue to increase stats, but it still shouldn't outpace the need for money power. It should just balance out over time to where money power while carrying smaller amounts of money is just good, not op at all, and carrying high amounts of money can be op, just actually requiring the player to take very big risk.

If you're careful and kill enemies with 2-4 shots I don't think it's a risk. The same scrap bots take a few seconds to attack and you also have traps. The risk is when you went after the update to beat the cionic organism with a money power .

[cinos]

aka, tl;dr, playing the game long enough will pretty much force people to not turn their brain off, is that what you're saying?

I mean I already think 10k defense requires focusing on the game to not lose hours of progress, so what you are saying is basically the same but better.

Basically yes. I mean, there will continue to be new sets and higher leveled players which will continue to increase stats, but it still shouldn't outpace the need for money power. It should just balance out over time to where money power while carrying smaller amounts of money is just good, not op at all, and carrying high amounts of money can be op, just actually requiring the player to take very big risk.

If you're careful and kill enemies with 2-4 shots I don't think it's a risk. The same scrap bots take a few seconds to attack and you also have traps. The risk is when you went after the update to beat the cionic organism with a money power .

Imagine going with money power AND full item sacrifice tho, now THAT would be silly

[CrazyVanilla]

Cowboy is definitely the best class for grinding because of money power, however I do have a bit of a rebuttal for you. I don't totally disagree with you here, but I more so think the problem here will mostly be fixed over time. Let me explain.

The way money power works, it is not exponential. It gives a bigger damage boost at the start (the first say 1m of money you are carrying), then as you keep carrying more and more money, the damage boost becomes less and less.

For example, back when I was cowboy, I would usually carry about 1m when going to grind. My base damage (no money power, and using the 1st number in the damage range), was about 28k. With carrying that 1m, it would be boosted close to 50k, about an 80% increase. Now keep that in mind, because here is a screenshot of me carrying 50m coins. https://gyazo.com/4e8f62d10a26169ae701c735d559bd0f

If you notice, my damage is now only 167k, which is a lot, but I am carrying 50,000,000 coins, which is a lot of money. It also shows the drastic decrease in damage boost the more money you are carrying, since if it was an 80% boost for every 1m you carry, my damage would be close to 1.2m damage rather than the 167k, which is a pretty massive difference. Also look at my defense, with carrying no money at all my defense output was normally about 64k, with carrying the 50m it dropped all the way down to 10k, which is quite the risk to take when grinding at that point I would say, especially when there are more threatening enemies available.

Now, why do I think this will mostly fix itself over time? Well, right now enemies are pretty weak and unthreatening, making 100k+ damage output insanely OP, which you can currently get without carrying THAT much money as a cowboy or taking that much risk. However as enemies continue to increase in strength and difficulty, cowboys will need to carry more and more money to keep up, which in turn will lower their defense lower and lower, and present a very large risk. I mean, when grinding something like znakes, or heck even scrap bots, 10k def with 300 hp is manageable if you can kill them quickly. But what happens when theres an enemy 5x stronger than scrap bots? No way you can grind those things with only 10k def. Thats kinda what I'm getting at - as enemies get stronger money power will require the players to carry more money which in turn will in itself nerf money power naturally.

Not gonna argue at all with your logic but giving exact numbers i am gonna show you why no matter how strong mobs will be, gunman skills are way too OP. In the future with better mobs carrying 1M will be like nothing and view of 80% damage increase would be heck of a boost, without loosing much deffense. In other words, with better mobs you get significant boost for a low cost.So who said you need to carry a lot of money to boost up yourself? Imagine earning 1M in an hour-would you care if you loose it from time to time just to boost yoursel up by those 80% just to farm 2-times stronger mobs?. Also if the buff gets lower despite carrying money would you risk having them way more than needed to farm? Don't think so. Not even gonna explain how this would look with clam tarps and coin skill again.

I know I didn't mention it and I should have but, carrying that 1m did result in 80% damage boost, it also lowered my defense from 64k down to like 30k, which is a pretty big amount. So I wouldn't exactly call it riskless, I mean to make it riskless you'd have to upgrade very high defense, which would take away artillery, in turn lowering you damage quite a bit for that trade off. Like I said, it's just that right now enemies are not threatening at all, and I fully agree right now cowboy is the best class for grinding by far. Like we need some normal enemies that attack like Cionic Organism does, that way you CAN'T just avoid 100% of its attacks.

[TheWood]

Basically yes. I mean, there will continue to be new sets and higher leveled players which will continue to increase stats, but it still shouldn't outpace the need for money power. It should just balance out over time to where money power while carrying smaller amounts of money is just good, not op at all, and carrying high amounts of money can be op, just actually requiring the player to take very big risk.

If you're careful and kill enemies with 2-4 shots I don't think it's a risk. The same scrap bots take a few seconds to attack and you also have traps. The risk is when you went after the update to beat the cionic organism with a money power .

Imagine going with money power AND full item sacrifice tho, now THAT would be silly

It's crazy. And I saw a player with a bunch of coins and sacrifice items killed by a boss.

[GeraltOfRivia]

80% power buff for around 50-60% def decrease is still good opportunity for a class that have way better range than mobs. Also as mentioned if you are carefull enough, knows how to distibute all your stat points well, having regen and enough consumables and not being stupid enough to use sacrifice skills gunman can have like that only by using coin shot:
as a base 100k damage(100 in simple way)
(100+100x80%)x3=540
This means just by using two skills you get x5.5 damage with every single shot, not to mention infinite clamp traps.Knowing area, all spwan points and delay between them makes gunman unstoppable killing machine that don't even have to stop to attack.
Not gonna argue at all with your logic but giving exact numbers i am gonna show you why no matter how strong mobs will be, gunman skills are way too OP. In the future with better mobs carrying 1M will be like nothing and view of 80% damage increase would be heck of a boost, without loosing much deffense. In other words, with better mobs you get significant boost for a low cost.So who said you need to carry a lot of money to boost up yourself? Imagine earning 1M in an hour-would you care if you loose it from time to time just to boost yoursel up by those 80% just to farm 2-times stronger mobs?. Also if the buff gets lower despite carrying money would you risk having them way more than needed to farm? Don't think so. Not even gonna explain how this would look with clam tarps and coin skill again.

I know I didn't mention it and I should have but, carrying that 1m did result in 80% damage boost, it also lowered my defense from 64k down to like 30k, which is a pretty big amount. So I wouldn't exactly call it riskless, I mean to make it riskless you'd have to upgrade very high defense, which would take away artillery, in turn lowering you damage quite a bit for that trade off. Like I said, it's just that right now enemies are not threatening at all, and I fully agree right now cowboy is the best class for grinding by far. Like we need some normal enemies that attack like Cionic Organism does, that way you CAN'T just avoid 100% of its attacks.

Post bugged somehow
So again 80% damage buff for around 50-60% def loss is still good for ranged class. F.e with 100 damage with 80% boost and 300% boost from coin skill you gets 5.4x more damage than normal, and thats without clamps. Also as mentione if you are carefull enough, knows how to manage well your points, not being stupid enough to use sacrifice skills, knowing area well-spawn points, regen, consumables and delay between respawns you can easily be unstoppable killing machine that don't even have to stop, and as an addition mobs don't have so high attack range to cause him any trouble. You also meant having mobs dealing attacks like Cionic-if there would be enemies like that spawning aroundn not only gunmans might finds it hard to grind.

[Flashlight237]

Me, personally? I always felt Whipmaster should be the "middle of the road" class, kinda like a Rogue class or something. Wizards were always pretty dang proficient and downright overpowered even when it comes to magic. Warriors were strong attackers, plus they can be subdivided into crusaders (what Eliatopia's warriors most closely resemble), paladins, berserkers, and, well, straight-up warriors. Archers were always best at ranged attacks and were otherwise... Ehh... Well, not in this game, but in any other I'd imagine they'd be average for the most part. Gunmen... The only RPG outside of Robby's two MMO dodgies was the Epic Battle Fantasy series, and the character with that class, Lance, specialized in accuracy of all stats. As far as I can tell, Whipmaster was a class of my own creation, though I'm pretty sure someone can find a similar idea and correct me on that one.

Weirdly enough, Robby had the class lean more towards the higher end spectrum of power on paper. That's he keyword here: on paper. Though, weird thing I found out? Tipper damage is counted under the SKILL DAMAGE aspect of the formula, which would explain why Blind Tip and Tip Boost only raised Whipmaster damage from 180% to 260%. That admittedly was part of my frustration both towards Robby's treatment of the class and towards the people who dislike Whipmaster. If tipper damage was it's own multiplier, then I can see Whipmaster tips doing 252% damage with Tip Boost alone. That's how stark the 1.4x damage boost would've been if it had actually worked.

Honestly, just making tip damage it's own multiplier in the damage formula would've fixed the issue with the tip's damage tradeoff or at least made it a bit more satisfying to run the class. Just my take.

Money Power... Really, that is the wonkiest skill out there. Robby had posted Money Power's formula recently when he changed the formula to something... Somewhat more sensible but still overpowered. I'd search up the skill to know more, but that's what I recall.

[GeraltOfRivia]

Me, personally? I always felt Whipmaster should be the "middle of the road" class, kinda like a Rogue class or something. Wizards were always pretty dang proficient and downright overpowered even when it comes to magic. Warriors were strong attackers, plus they can be subdivided into crusaders (what Eliatopia's warriors most closely resemble), paladins, berserkers, and, well, straight-up warriors. Archers were always best at ranged attacks and were otherwise... Ehh... Well, not in this game, but in any other I'd imagine they'd be average for the most part. Gunmen... The only RPG outside of Robby's two MMO dodgies was the Epic Battle Fantasy series, and the character with that class, Lance, specialized in accuracy of all stats. As far as I can tell, Whipmaster was a class of my own creation, though I'm pretty sure someone can find a similar idea and correct me on that one.

Weirdly enough, Robby had the class lean more towards the higher end spectrum of power on paper. That's he keyword here: on paper. Though, weird thing I found out? Tipper damage is counted under the SKILL DAMAGE aspect of the formula, which would explain why Blind Tip and Tip Boost only raised Whipmaster damage from 180% to 260%. That admittedly was part of my frustration both towards Robby's treatment of the class and towards the people who dislike Whipmaster. If tipper damage was it's own multiplier, then I can see Whipmaster tips doing 252% damage with Tip Boost alone. That's how stark the 1.4x damage boost would've been if it had actually worked.

Honestly, just making tip damage it's own multiplier in the damage formula would've fixed the issue with the tip's damage tradeoff or at least made it a bit more satisfying to run the class. Just my take.

Money Power... Really, that is the wonkiest skill out there. Robby had posted Money Power's formula recently when he changed the formula to something... Somewhat more sensible but still overpowered. I'd search up the skill to know more, but that's what I recall.

I mean, yeah whipmaster class could use a lot of formula changes to make it more playable. As a mid-ranged class from what i can say is way too weak. As you mentioned he gets x2.6 multiplier with tip, which compare to gunman money power and coin shot x5.4 , money power and clamp x12.15 looks just lame. Even if we skip money power skill just with coin shot he gets bigger damage with each shot, while performing tip damage ain't so easy to do each time.

[Flashlight237]

Me, personally? I always felt Whipmaster should be the "middle of the road" class, kinda like a Rogue class or something. Wizards were always pretty dang proficient and downright overpowered even when it comes to magic. Warriors were strong attackers, plus they can be subdivided into crusaders (what Eliatopia's warriors most closely resemble), paladins, berserkers, and, well, straight-up warriors. Archers were always best at ranged attacks and were otherwise... Ehh... Well, not in this game, but in any other I'd imagine they'd be average for the most part. Gunmen... The only RPG outside of Robby's two MMO dodgies was the Epic Battle Fantasy series, and the character with that class, Lance, specialized in accuracy of all stats. As far as I can tell, Whipmaster was a class of my own creation, though I'm pretty sure someone can find a similar idea and correct me on that one.

Weirdly enough, Robby had the class lean more towards the higher end spectrum of power on paper. That's he keyword here: on paper. Though, weird thing I found out? Tipper damage is counted under the SKILL DAMAGE aspect of the formula, which would explain why Blind Tip and Tip Boost only raised Whipmaster damage from 180% to 260%. That admittedly was part of my frustration both towards Robby's treatment of the class and towards the people who dislike Whipmaster. If tipper damage was it's own multiplier, then I can see Whipmaster tips doing 252% damage with Tip Boost alone. That's how stark the 1.4x damage boost would've been if it had actually worked.

Honestly, just making tip damage it's own multiplier in the damage formula would've fixed the issue with the tip's damage tradeoff or at least made it a bit more satisfying to run the class. Just my take.

Money Power... Really, that is the wonkiest skill out there. Robby had posted Money Power's formula recently when he changed the formula to something... Somewhat more sensible but still overpowered. I'd search up the skill to know more, but that's what I recall.

I mean, yeah whipmaster class could use a lot of formula changes to make it more playable. As a mid-ranged class from what i can say is way too weak. As you mentioned he gets x2.6 multiplier with tip, which compare to gunman money power and coin shot x5.4 , money power and clamp x12.15 looks just lame. Even if we skip money power skill just with coin shot he gets bigger damage with each shot, while performing tip damage ain't so easy to do each time.

Yeah, Coin Shot is a straight 3x multiplier, which is pretty overpowered in on itself since it relies on DPS AND can be used basically infinitely without MP limiting it.