Replace bounce arrow with hoard rain

[cinos]

Hear me out

Bounce arrow was added in as a similar move to upward arrows in Helmet Heroes (that was the original intent of the suggestion that got it added), but as we all know, bounce arrow is anything other than a useful upward arrow. It is a highly situational move that is outdone by literally every other area control tool (ie clamps, snakes, clouds etc).

This is in PVP btw, it's even less useful in PVE, literally only ever seen botters use it, it's the antithesis of a good move.

With that out of the way, hoard rain...hoard rain

Hoard rain is an extremely broken move, and it has no reason to be able to do as much damage as it can, with THAT many arrows there to make dodging harder. Hoard is a simple move. You have a slow shotgun bow, and if you land all or most of em you can do pretty good damage with the multipliers. It didn't need EXTRA LITTLE BABY ARROWS to just make dodging harder and drive the damage to unrealistic proportions for any humane stat build.
Seriously, you can oneshot a 500k defense build with 1k HP, YOU CAN TAKE OUT 500 HP WITHOUT EVEN ALL HOARD ARROWS LANDING, ON A DEFENSE BUILD! Most people don't even have that much defense OR HP, why would you think this is balanced in any way? I'm not the only one saying this btw, mike has recorded some footage that shows how much damage it does to a build specifically built for defense, it's not normal for a move that has such a wide (and now tall) radius to be so broken!
Plus, when it was added, archers said it just made PVE actively worse since they used more MP for what is essentially their main attack. They can no longer JUST use their normal attack to grind enemies consistently, no they must use the super annoying rain hoard that wastes their mp, when most enemies they fought ALREADY died easily too the regular hoard.

I propose, as the title says, to fix pretty much all of these issues by splitting rain from the hoard tree and making it a replacement of bounce rain. Nobody would miss bounce rain from what I know since it does legit nothing, Archers would have more options in PVE, and what was previously an annoying addition to an already powerful (but balanced, before this) move, can now be a seperate move that allows players to kill things that are higher than them. This has many practical uses, such as the rock walls in pvp, or to attack from under the hill, and it fixes the issue of hoard legit firing TOO MANY arrows at once, leading to too much MP used in PVE, and too much bυllshιτ in PVP.

It gives you more options, and it makes the overall archer experience more fun for both them and their opponents. I mean, am I wrong here? Would you wanna keep bounce arrow, lmao?

[Flashlight237]

I sincerely don't think Robby would remove the first skill, because frankly, when had Robby removed anything because fans told him to? But yeah, you're right. It does seem a little off that a skill that is essentially what you get when you fire a shotgun is as powerful as it is. Thing is, well... Which one do you want, mate? I mean a skill is supposed to cost more MP the more powerful it is, that is true enough. But here, I can't tell if you're saying whether the skill is too powerful or too costly in MP. I'd rather not say whether I support or oppose any changes here until you clarify there.

[cinos]

I sincerely don't think Robby would remove the first skill, because frankly, when had Robby removed anything because fans told him to? But yeah, you're right. It does seem a little off that a skill that is essentially what you get when you fire a shotgun is as powerful as it is. Thing is, well... Which one do you want, mate? I mean a skill is supposed to cost more MP the more powerful it is, that is true enough. But here, I can't tell if you're saying whether the skill is too powerful or too costly in MP. I'd rather not say whether I support or oppose any changes here until you clarify there.

Basically what I'm arguing is that it uses too much MP to be viable for PVE, because hoard was already perfect for it, but the skill is completely unfair in PVP because of it's insane damage (note: on 500k rage def, with a shield) and spread (not only do you have a shotgun, but not little baby arrows will make dodging even harder, ON AN ALREADYY WIDE ATTACK BTW!), in spite of it's MP usage.

I believe splitting the rain from hoard and putting it as a replacement for bounce rain would make everyone happy, especially PVE focused archers. Plus, it'd probably allow for archers to use it strategically in PVP, by perhaps raining upon the enemy to force them to dodge, so you can set em up for a meatshot full hoard.

I don't see why it CAN'T happen really, we have replaced or reworked moves in the past, sometimes to the point where their usage is completely different. We could definitely try this, it's not a move anyone will ever miss.

[Flashlight237]

I see. Eh, I'll support it, but I still think there are caveats behind doing this.

[troopas]

I've suggested this before to make bouncing arrow more useful but I'll put it here to collect thoughts:

Allow you to use bouncing arrow when walking, running, or jumping. As of now you need to stop to use it but with that change you could use it running away from people and to attack large hoards of enemies in 360 degrees. I'd also like for the balls to roll around more when on the ground because after they're done jumping they beat move.


Here's another suggestion for it I've never suggested: homing bouncing arrows: basically when you shoot it out they're homing arrows with the damage and size of.bouncing arrows. This OR make it so when they bounce for the first time they turn into homing arrows to target players.


Again these are just thoughts and could create balancing issues I suppose so just tell me what you think.


As for arrow rain though? I think I'm having a hard time understanding just what exactly you're suggesting since a lot of the thread is dedicated to arrow hoard but if I think you want an exact copy from HH. So with this the obvious problem is that now it's harder to hit things because the hoard wont move after shot like bouncing rain AND has smaller hit boxes. Unless you increase the arrow count DRAMATICALLY I dont see why this would ever be used. Although this would be really cool mixed with my being able to run/walk and jump suggestion.


My last comment on this is that it's simply just too slow to use the skill in any practical way. You need to be able to using bouncing rain or arrow rain if it gets added a much faster rate.


Hopefully that all made sense with what I said as I typed this on phone and I'm bad at mobile keyboards.

[cinos]

I've suggested this before to make bouncing arrow more useful but I'll put it here to collect thoughts:

Allow you to use bouncing arrow when walking, running, or jumping. As of now you need to stop to use it but with that change you could use it running away from people and to attack large hoards of enemies in 360 degrees. I'd also like for the balls to roll around more when on the ground because after they're done jumping they beat move.


Here's another suggestion for it I've never suggested: homing bouncing arrows: basically when you shoot it out they're homing arrows with the damage and size of.bouncing arrows. This OR make it so when they bounce for the first time they turn into homing arrows to target players.


Again these are just thoughts and could create balancing issues I suppose so just tell me what you think.


As for arrow rain though? I think I'm having a hard time understanding just what exactly you're suggesting since a lot of the thread is dedicated to arrow hoard but if I think you want an exact copy from HH. So with this the obvious problem is that now it's harder to hit things because the hoard wont move after shot like bouncing rain AND has smaller hit boxes. Unless you increase the arrow count DRAMATICALLY I dont see why this would ever be used. Although this would be really cool mixed with my being able to run/walk and jump suggestion.


My last comment on this is that it's simply just too slow to use the skill in any practical way. You need to be able to using bouncing rain or arrow rain if it gets added a much faster rate.


Hopefully that all made sense with what I said as I typed this on phone and I'm bad at mobile keyboards.

Oh yes I didn't think you'd JUST seperate them with no proper balancing, I'd actually either make the rain faster if it's a seperate skill, because the arrows generally fall slowly compared to a hoard or homing arrow, that or just keep it slow but increase the arrow count.
I do believe rain is a good upward skill, since a decent strategy on koth for example is to fire hoards to have just the rain reach the platform. It's imo a lot more useful than "stand in place and press M 500 times with no luck of ever having your opponent be stupid enough to touch a bounce arrow". It's GENUINELY interesting, and a mildly useful skill is better than one we have been trying to find a purpose for since launch.
We could even just combine the two and make the arrow rain arrows be the bouncy balls, that'd just make them more useful since they'd exist for a small period of time , while also being in a more practical shooting radius, though they'd obviously not have sharp hoard affect them.

Just take hoard rain from the hoard, put it on the M key, and tune things out to be more functional, simple as uhhh pie.

[troopas]

I've suggested this before to make bouncing arrow more useful but I'll put it here to collect thoughts:

Allow you to use bouncing arrow when walking, running, or jumping. As of now you need to stop to use it but with that change you could use it running away from people and to attack large hoards of enemies in 360 degrees. I'd also like for the balls to roll around more when on the ground because after they're done jumping they beat move.


Here's another suggestion for it I've never suggested: homing bouncing arrows: basically when you shoot it out they're homing arrows with the damage and size of.bouncing arrows. This OR make it so when they bounce for the first time they turn into homing arrows to target players.


Again these are just thoughts and could create balancing issues I suppose so just tell me what you think.


As for arrow rain though? I think I'm having a hard time understanding just what exactly you're suggesting since a lot of the thread is dedicated to arrow hoard but if I think you want an exact copy from HH. So with this the obvious problem is that now it's harder to hit things because the hoard wont move after shot like bouncing rain AND has smaller hit boxes. Unless you increase the arrow count DRAMATICALLY I dont see why this would ever be used. Although this would be really cool mixed with my being able to run/walk and jump suggestion.


My last comment on this is that it's simply just too slow to use the skill in any practical way. You need to be able to using bouncing rain or arrow rain if it gets added a much faster rate.


Hopefully that all made sense with what I said as I typed this on phone and I'm bad at mobile keyboards.

Oh yes I didn't think you'd JUST seperate them with no proper balancing, I'd actually either make the rain faster if it's a seperate skill, because the arrows generally fall slowly compared to a hoard or homing arrow, that or just keep it slow but increase the arrow count.
I do believe rain is a good upward skill, since a decent strategy on koth for example is to fire hoards to have just the rain reach the platform. It's imo a lot more useful than "stand in place and press M 500 times with no luck of ever having your opponent be stupid enough to touch a bounce arrow". It's GENUINELY interesting, and a mildly useful skill is better than one we have been trying to find a purpose for since launch.
We could even just combine the two and make the arrow rain arrows be the bouncy balls, that'd just make them more useful since they'd exist for a small period of time , while also being in a more practical shooting radius, though they'd obviously not have sharp hoard affect them.

Just take hoard rain from the hoard, put it on the M key, and tune things out to be more functional, simple as uhhh pie.

The inherent problem for me is there are no situations where either skill could be useful in pve or pvp because arrow hoard. It has to be able to be used while moving and be FAST otherwise arrow hoard will out class it in any way. Arrow hoard already does the shoot high job perfectly and better than bouncing rain so theres my thoughts on it

[cinos]

I've suggested this before to make bouncing arrow more useful but I'll put it here to collect thoughts:

Allow you to use bouncing arrow when walking, running, or jumping. As of now you need to stop to use it but with that change you could use it running away from people and to attack large hoards of enemies in 360 degrees. I'd also like for the balls to roll around more when on the ground because after they're done jumping they beat move.


Here's another suggestion for it I've never suggested: homing bouncing arrows: basically when you shoot it out they're homing arrows with the damage and size of.bouncing arrows. This OR make it so when they bounce for the first time they turn into homing arrows to target players.


Again these are just thoughts and could create balancing issues I suppose so just tell me what you think.


As for arrow rain though? I think I'm having a hard time understanding just what exactly you're suggesting since a lot of the thread is dedicated to arrow hoard but if I think you want an exact copy from HH. So with this the obvious problem is that now it's harder to hit things because the hoard wont move after shot like bouncing rain AND has smaller hit boxes. Unless you increase the arrow count DRAMATICALLY I dont see why this would ever be used. Although this would be really cool mixed with my being able to run/walk and jump suggestion.


My last comment on this is that it's simply just too slow to use the skill in any practical way. You need to be able to using bouncing rain or arrow rain if it gets added a much faster rate.


Hopefully that all made sense with what I said as I typed this on phone and I'm bad at mobile keyboards.

Oh yes I didn't think you'd JUST seperate them with no proper balancing, I'd actually either make the rain faster if it's a seperate skill, because the arrows generally fall slowly compared to a hoard or homing arrow, that or just keep it slow but increase the arrow count.
I do believe rain is a good upward skill, since a decent strategy on koth for example is to fire hoards to have just the rain reach the platform. It's imo a lot more useful than "stand in place and press M 500 times with no luck of ever having your opponent be stupid enough to touch a bounce arrow". It's GENUINELY interesting, and a mildly useful skill is better than one we have been trying to find a purpose for since launch.
We could even just combine the two and make the arrow rain arrows be the bouncy balls, that'd just make them more useful since they'd exist for a small period of time , while also being in a more practical shooting radius, though they'd obviously not have sharp hoard affect them.

Just take hoard rain from the hoard, put it on the M key, and tune things out to be more functional, simple as uhhh pie.

The inherent problem for me is there are no situations where either skill could be useful in pve or pvp because arrow hoard. It has to be able to be used while moving and be FAST otherwise arrow hoard will out class it in any way. Arrow hoard already does the shoot high job perfectly and better than bouncing rain so theres my thoughts on it

Well imo we either split em up so you can strategically place the slower rain arrows for positioning a hoard, or we nerf rain hoard as is and keep the M skill as a useless waste of skill points, I dunno what else to say.

[TheWood]

Hoard rain isn't difficult to dodge, it flies slowly and always falls at the same distance from the player. It can be difficult on a hill because it is small or if you have a ridiculous amount of health and defense with a pellet spitter and you have almost no dodge and always shoot. You were killed by the hoard because there was an invisible poison zone and each arrow from hoard did 58 poison damage to you, the amount of defense didn't make sense. That rain is hard to hit moving targets, for all arrows to hit a monster in pve the monster has to have a big hitbox and need to shoot very close, in pvp your opponent has to be inattentive to get rained out or be attacked at very close range. Bouncing rain is usually useless, only using at very close range on a monster with a big hitbox in pve makes it sometimes useful. In pvp it is a way to make the hill almost inaccessible. In normal pvp these two skills aren't very useful.

[cinos]

Hoard rain isn't difficult to dodge, it flies slowly and always falls at the same distance from the player. It can be difficult on a hill because it is small or if you have a ridiculous amount of health and defense with a pellet spitter and you have almost no dodge and always shoot. You were killed by the hoard because there was an invisible poison zone and each arrow from hoard did 58 poison damage to you, the amount of defense didn't make sense. That rain is hard to hit moving targets, for all arrows to hit a monster in pve the monster has to have a big hitbox and need to shoot very close, in pvp your opponent has to be inattentive to get rained out or be attacked at very close range. Bouncing rain is usually useless, only using at very close range on a monster with a big hitbox in pve makes it sometimes useful. In pvp it is a way to make the hill almost inaccessible. In normal pvp these two skills aren't very useful.

Uh, no?

Bounce rain ISN'T useful on the hill, that's why everyone uses homing arrows instead (you should know). I still believe this is for the best and will allow more variety for the archer class, rather than "use all your mp for one hoard, then spam homing arrow".