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Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:09 pm
by Flashlight237
As someone who made a ton of art for the game, I personally think creativity should be prioritized over things like arbitrary ideas of difficulty and such. Come on, look at Maplestory and how many monsters the game has for just the first 20 levels: https://maplestory.fandom.com/wiki/Monster/Level_1_-_10
https://maplestory.fandom.com/wiki/Mons ... el_11_-_20

Those guys know how to liven up environments and make things creative!

When making monsters, I've made monsters ranging from environmental buffers (Batlings and Sandshags) to monsters with interesting mechanics (Madmasks, Necrostinkers, and Kingscorpees). Ultimately, the only way to liven up environments is to add more in everything. Here's what I can say about each case.:

More Monsters

Okay, so CrazyVanilla had stated that he thinks there are too much content for Level 40-ish players, but too me, I think he failed to account for the fact that monster variety in general is very lacking, which seriously deters the liveliness of the environments for the games. Here are the points I'll make in that regard.

Livelier Environments

The way I see it, the biggest benefit to adding more monsters to the game's already-existing areas is the fact that monster variety livens up the environment. For instance, in my version of Tumbleweed Desert, I've made TEN monsters: nine regular mobs and one mid-boss. Imagine how lively the desert would be if all ten mobs were included in the game. You'd be seeing the wide variety of creatures that could be fought along with a wide variety of loot drops to obtain and the vast amount of biological, environmental, and "Moonchyllus' personal thoughts" information on each mob. It would feel like a world is actually being created rather than being severely roadblocked by CrazyVanilla's creativity-hating complaints about difficulty and whatnot. Seriously, I think he's gone too far with it that time.

More Experimentation with Mechanics

I think another benefit to this idea would be the fact that it would give Robby more room to experiment with a variety of mechanics. For instance, Robby had told me through email that he wanted to have mobs that can boost their own defense. But to me, I think movesets are the most important thing to experiment with. Currently there are only four monsters with movesets: Logons, Scorpees, Lumbercore, and Cionic Organism. Night Stalkers have a clawing move, but it only gets used when players ride the thing.

Beyond that, there are many mechanics to explore that can only be done with expanding the monster variety of the game. Things like offensive debuffs, defensive debuffs, offensive buffs, Protection Field-bypassing, self-resurrection, summoning, bleeding effects, making players MISS their attacks, and more can be considered.

Worldbuilding

Wider monster variety also promotes worldbuilding. Like, for instance, wider monster variety would answer questions such as "What would a Dumtilian eat?", "What can eat a Grunt?", "Where the heck are all the poisonous shrooms?," etc.

It would be cool to see a Dire Rat being a predator of Grunts and Scrap Bots, and some giant, long-tongued lizard can be eating Waffle Cones like candy. Heck, there would be a wide variety of nocturnal monsters to boot.

More Equips

For the record, I think creativity should matter far more than level gaps when it comes to equipment. Seriously, all caring only about level gaps does is promote heavy equipment price inflation. I've made a variety of equipments of all shapes and colors. heck, there are a ton of references to boot, like Indiana Jones (Raider set), Total Drama, Final Fantasy (Dark Mage set), Helmet Heroes, and a variety of sports and civilizations. But there are other things that I should go for here, like...

Item Drop Variety

I personally found it difficult to come up with drop lists for various monsters due to the lacking equipment variety in the game. What if I wanna give Waffle Cones ice cream-themed items or a monster made out of wooden blocks toy-themed items? What about marine-themed items for aquatic monsters like Proteums and such? Heck, what if I wanna give Egyptian-themed or desert-themed items to Lizags or Kingscorpees or even just regular Scorpees? There's a whole untouched palette out there that is being left untouched due to a forced "only appeal to the high-levels" attitude when it comes to equipment. Why not go back and fill some holes?

Gap-Filling Because OCD

I am pretty OCD when it comes to huge gaps of power and defense when it comes to equipment. I would love it if said gaps were filled with in-betweener equips. Let's say I want to put something between the Mushroom Plate and the Casted Crow set. BAM! Gap filled, less OCD. Simple enough?

Greater Element of Choice

Going further on a limb, what if players make it to Level 45 yet, say... They don't want to wear a Helmet Heroes set and would rather wear something more original? In that case, give them original equipments around the same tier as the HH sets. Already that would give players mroe options. Also, as it currently stands, there are hardly any slow guns, slow handguns, fast handguns (ex. UZIs), slow handguns (ex. Flintlock pistols), etc. If slower guns and faster guns are given more variety, they would allow gunmen to have a choice between raw power for grenades and clamp traps, or DPS for coin shot. So many options!

Also, Quiwi recently said to me that higher equipment variety would allow players to go glass-cannon like they already do when wearing Priest and Tengu gear, or go tank like they already do with Element or Romance gear. After all, people tend to love picking between glass cannon, middle-ground, and tank builds. Mhmm.

Area Expansion

As pointed out by Geralt, areas would need expansion themselves. And I do think there are some benefits for it. Granted, people might complain over area size as they once did with the expansion of the ENTIRE WORLD in Helmet Heroes, but here... Honestly, what is 20-30 seconds more walking in each area gonna do to stop people from, say, taking the PVP shortcut for example?

Improved Farming Ability

Really, it's mainly about the farming, which... Well, why not? I always wanted the game to be more. Granted one can argue that the game is worked on by one guy (though technically I am in the back seat when it comes to in-game art), but... Come on. Matt Roszak made 216 monsters, with even the recolor-y monsters having unique aspects to them design-wise and combat-wise and he's only one guy making an RPG (only help he got was Phyrnna in the music department and Ronja with some of the art) for Epic Battle Fantasy 5. What the heck is stopping Eliatopia from being a one-man Maplestory?

But back to the point. While currently the low player counts are sustainable by the game, if 400 people are needed to make a new server, then it is best to think about how the game would satisfy 200 players as opposed to 40-70 (80 on a good day). To me, Areas 6, 7, 10, 19, 24 (though that would get in the way of Robby's intention of that area being narrow), 25, pretty much the entire Slime Factory, 32, 33, 35, 37, weirdly enough 38, 48, 58, 59, and 78 are the best candidates for expansion, especially 48 and 78 since most of the complaints are directed at those two specifically.

Improved Exploration

Yeah, this one is a big one to me. While the areas in the game have been very... Ehh... Linear, I do think area expansion would encourage some level of exploration. For instance, you can find more bargain bins, or heck, you can put in Easter Egg spots. I personally feel out of bounds spots should be turned into Easter Eggs instead of spots that need to be closed off. And why not? You would find new places for rune farming including but not limited to ice runes. Most importantly, and I do think it would help a lot, there would be new landmarks or new objects to check out with enough love and care put into area expansion, and I try to put some love into each thing I make for Robby.

Personally, I do think exploration would wind up not being too encouraged if off-path niches weren't included. Like, say, what if going west of Area 33, for example, you can walk off into a new map that would contain lots of Rafflesias, Logons, Fire Monkeys, P-Sicles, Spark Mantises, whatever. Now THAT is how you encourage exploration instead of keeping players stuck on a linear path.

So yeah, there ya have it.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:55 pm
by Heneral
If robby hire some workers then this will be possible.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:58 am
by GeraltOfRivia
Doesn't seems like a bad idea but it would require a bit of time to add them, not to mention the need to expand or create new areas. 2-3 new low lvl mobs sounds good, but i would rather still focus on expanding most of already existing areas and creating way more spawn points to satisfy low lvl players. F.e caves are big areas with a lot of spawn points giving possibiltiy to grind there for at least few ppl at once, differently then most other areas. So the main problem here is way too small amount of mobs in tottal. I'm not saying that adding even 10 new low is a bad idea(new once could drop other runes), but focusing only on them won't make high lvl players happy.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:06 pm
by Flashlight237
GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:58 am
Doesn't seems like a bad idea but it would require a bit of time to add them, not to mention the need to expand or create new areas. 2-3 new low lvl mobs sounds good, but i would rather still focus on expanding most of already existing areas and creating way more spawn points to satisfy low lvl players. F.e caves are big areas with a lot of spawn points giving possibiltiy to grind there for at least few ppl at once, differently then most other areas. So the main problem here is way too small amount of mobs in tottal. I'm not saying that adding even 10 new low is a bad idea(new once could drop other runes), but focusing only on them won't make high lvl players happy.
You're right. Areas DO need to be expanded on beforehand. I know it happened once before, specifically with Areas 3 and 7, so I don't know what's stopping that from happening again. Heck, I personally felt Area 32 of all things needed to be widened (even though it kinda already is wide open) because I wanted to actually see the river that goes into Teplar Pond flow consistently.

Area 37 itself can be expanded, mainly because it's lake is a pretty good contender for an underwater combat spot should underwater combat be added.

Areas 6, 7, and 10 are good candidates for expansion, as are 19, 25, 33, weirdly enough 38 (is it strange that I wanted an icy cave area?), 48, 59 and 78. I know people complained about the scarcity of Scrap Bot spawns making it hard for people to farm them; in fact, I think 48 and 78 are the most demanded areas for expansion as far as I'm aware.

And yes, I felt the mob count is too small in total, but now I think it's in two out of who knows how many ways: different types of monsters and the number of monster spawns.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:34 pm
by GeraltOfRivia
Flashlight237 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:06 pm
GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:58 am
Doesn't seems like a bad idea but it would require a bit of time to add them, not to mention the need to expand or create new areas. 2-3 new low lvl mobs sounds good, but i would rather still focus on expanding most of already existing areas and creating way more spawn points to satisfy low lvl players. F.e caves are big areas with a lot of spawn points giving possibiltiy to grind there for at least few ppl at once, differently then most other areas. So the main problem here is way too small amount of mobs in tottal. I'm not saying that adding even 10 new low is a bad idea(new once could drop other runes), but focusing only on them won't make high lvl players happy.
You're right. Areas DO need to be expanded on beforehand. I know it happened once before, specifically with Areas 3 and 7, so I don't know what's stopping that from happening again. Heck, I personally felt Area 32 of all things needed to be widened (even though it kinda already is wide open) because I wanted to actually see the river that goes into Teplar Pond flow consistently.

Area 37 itself can be expanded, mainly because it's lake is a pretty good contender for an underwater combat spot should underwater combat be added.

Areas 6, 7, and 10 are good candidates for expansion, as are 19, 25, 33, weirdly enough 38 (is it strange that I wanted an icy cave area?), 48, 59 and 78. I know people complained about the scarcity of Scrap Bot spawns making it hard for people to farm them; in fact, I think 48 and 78 are the most demanded areas for expansion as far as I'm aware.

And yes, I felt the mob count is too small in total, but now I think it's in two out of who knows how many ways: different types of monsters and the number of monster spawns.
Not only those You mentioned could use expansion. Also 24, 35 could use expansion to the left side, 58( you can barely see anyone farm frogs there because of their very limited spawn points), and so on. To be honest i suppose at least 90% of existing areas should be expanded same as amount of spawn points, not to mention again adding more ice mobs spawn points. Also i am aware that this would probably mean longer time between spawns and lower drop rate but who cares?. With way bigger amount of players there would still be more than needed amount of runes and stones.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:52 pm
by Flashlight237
GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:34 pm
Flashlight237 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:06 pm
GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:58 am
Doesn't seems like a bad idea but it would require a bit of time to add them, not to mention the need to expand or create new areas. 2-3 new low lvl mobs sounds good, but i would rather still focus on expanding most of already existing areas and creating way more spawn points to satisfy low lvl players. F.e caves are big areas with a lot of spawn points giving possibiltiy to grind there for at least few ppl at once, differently then most other areas. So the main problem here is way too small amount of mobs in tottal. I'm not saying that adding even 10 new low is a bad idea(new once could drop other runes), but focusing only on them won't make high lvl players happy.
You're right. Areas DO need to be expanded on beforehand. I know it happened once before, specifically with Areas 3 and 7, so I don't know what's stopping that from happening again. Heck, I personally felt Area 32 of all things needed to be widened (even though it kinda already is wide open) because I wanted to actually see the river that goes into Teplar Pond flow consistently.

Area 37 itself can be expanded, mainly because it's lake is a pretty good contender for an underwater combat spot should underwater combat be added.

Areas 6, 7, and 10 are good candidates for expansion, as are 19, 25, 33, weirdly enough 38 (is it strange that I wanted an icy cave area?), 48, 59 and 78. I know people complained about the scarcity of Scrap Bot spawns making it hard for people to farm them; in fact, I think 48 and 78 are the most demanded areas for expansion as far as I'm aware.

And yes, I felt the mob count is too small in total, but now I think it's in two out of who knows how many ways: different types of monsters and the number of monster spawns.
Not only those You mentioned could use expansion. Also 24, 35 could use expansion to the left side, 58( you can barely see anyone farm frogs there because of their very limited spawn points), and so on. To be honest i suppose at least 90% of existing areas should be expanded same as amount of spawn points, not to mention again adding more ice mobs spawn points. Also i am aware that this would probably mean longer time between spawns and lower drop rate but who cares?. With way bigger amount of players there would still be more than needed amount of runes and stones.
Yeah, I mean if Robby wants to make a server at 400 online players, the game's maps have gotta account for 200 players as opposed to the current... I'd say 40-70 players at the ballpark, 80 on a good day? Heck, anything off the game's linear path is cool with me.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:41 pm
by cinos
Reminder that any opposition to moonchylus eliapedia intrusion is not "anti-creativity", it's merely saying it's got zero subtlety.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:12 pm
by CrazyVanilla
The one thing you don't account for is time, this would take so much time to do and basically halt game progression in the meantime, which is already something Robby struggles to keep up with since he's solo. As someone who actually plays the game and grinds unlike yourself, the idea of making more content for parts of the game that are quite literally passed through in a matter of hours is horrible.

There's no use in making 5 different enemies for the same target level when instead Robby can put the same amount of time into making those 5 enemies for 5 different target levels and just making multiple areas with each enemy and larger areas and keep game progression going. Or at least keep it to 2 enemies per target level to still give variety, which I agree is nice, just not practical for this game with a solo dev. The same thing goes for sets, most of the sets in the game currently are not even used until you get into Cheapos where the level gaps become larger, and even then some of the sets are hardly used. Why take time to implement something that no one uses? In my opinion, level gaps should be larger between sets even as it is now (for example the upcoming sets should be level 100 across the board IMO). I am all for different attacking mechanics though, I am supportive of enemies actually being challenging.

+1 on the area expansion thing. I've been preaching this for a very long time and mentioned it in one of my more recent posts. Areas should be supportive of at minimum 4-5 players grinding at a time since Robby does not want to add servers until 200+ players, which is currently not the case for most areas.

If you want to talk about creativity, why not be creative and actually add to the game at the same time? Where are the creative ways to level? Ways to make money? Ways to travel? Creative player builds? Heavy expansion on quests? Making the game revolve around more than "kill this level up" will improve creativity drastically.

This game currently revolves solely around killing enemies to level up, and already struggles to keep up with progression. This suggestion literally would literally halt progression to the only purpose of the game.There is also pvp, but that still needs a lot of work before I'd consider it actually a "main part" of the game, since its been extremely dead for a while now, especially since resistance came out.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:24 pm
by cinos
CrazyVanilla wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:12 pm
The one thing you don't account for is time, this would take so much time to do and basically halt game progression in the meantime, which is already something Robby struggles to keep up with since he's solo. As someone who actually plays the game and grinds unlike yourself, the idea of making more content for parts of the game that are quite literally passed through in a matter of hours is horrible.

There's no use in making 5 different enemies for the same target level when instead Robby can put the same amount of time into making those 5 enemies for 5 different target levels and just making multiple areas with each enemy and larger areas and keep game progression going. Or at least keep it to 2 enemies per target level to still give variety, which I agree is nice, just not practical for this game with a solo dev. The same thing goes for sets, most of the sets in the game currently are not even used until you get into Cheapos where the level gaps become larger, and even then some of the sets are hardly used. Why take time to implement something that no one uses? In my opinion, level gaps should be larger between sets even as it is now (for example the upcoming sets should be level 100 across the board IMO). I am all for different attacking mechanics though, I am supportive of enemies actually being challenging.

+1 on the area expansion thing. I've been preaching this for a very long time and mentioned it in one of my more recent posts. Areas should be supportive of at minimum 4-5 players grinding at a time since Robby does not want to add servers until 200+ players, which is currently not the case for most areas.

If you want to talk about creativity, why not be creative and actually add to the game at the same time? Where are the creative ways to level? Ways to make money? Ways to travel? Creative player builds? Heavy expansion on quests? Making the game revolve around more than "kill this level up" will improve creativity drastically.

This game currently revolves solely around killing enemies to level up, and already struggles to keep up with progression. This suggestion literally would literally halt progression to the only purpose of the game.There is also pvp, but that still needs a lot of work before I'd consider it actually a "main part" of the game, since its been extremely dead for a while now, especially since resistance came out.
pvp is struggling, not dead...and yes, poison resistance has to go, it's garbage.

Wanna know what we need for this to happen? More missions, which I'm guessing the items that do nothing are hinting at. ONTOP OF THAT, why not add CRAFTING with these mission items? Would be cool, right? Another way to make missions NOT clog up inventory after they're done. Make standard mission items able to craft pretty low level gear for a tiny bit of profit, while a huge load of em plus some shiny fish (wink) gives you SPECIAL NEW GEAR woooahhhh.
ONTOP ONTOP of that, fishing, pets (like quiwito's thread, most others are pretty much HH rehashes), ridables, the casino, that's how you spruce up the game world honestly. Atleast half of what I said is already said to be a future addition (fishing, casino), which is fine and dandy for me. I can atleast, without a doubt say, that adding a billion early enemies (when, guess what, we just did to make ice runes accessible, we don't need A THIRD WAVE of 20 exp additions) is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in a while, no offense but it's true. Why not just- YA KNOW, do that but for the 200-300 exp range? That's a good way to make players not feel cramped, right?! I thought that WAS what we were doing with azulong actually.

tl;dr yeah, you ain't half wrong.

Re: Improving/Promoting Creativity

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:27 pm
by TheWood
CrazyVanilla wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:12 pm
(for example the upcoming sets should be level 100 across the board IMO)
Lol that's too much level 75-85 would be enough.
CrazyVanilla wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:12 pm
I'd consider it actually a "main part" of the game, since its been extremely dead for a while now, especially since resistance came out.
It's truth, pvp is dead after the introduction of resistance.