The fundamental flaw of Whipmaster

[cinos]

Okay, because nobody else had the balls, I got a stat reset and spent my cash to try out the worst class in the game, and see how it fares in the triple digit stages...and good lord, it's garbage. Legit, I did not expect it to be this bad. I expected lackluster range, not for the entire point of the class to just not exist.

So, what is the POINT of the whipmaster? Well, precision = masterful damage...but, it doesn't. With 185 finesse, all damage skills upping the ante, with 210K DAMAGE OUTPUT, even with the sonic boom attack the whipmaster needs to attack a scrap bot, A MONSTER, six times to kill it if crits are on your side, WHILE using sonic boom. The whipmaster's basic melee attack, even alongside sonic boom (the double click move that does that cool sound with the purple aura), is completely useless in any scenario.
The only viable move I have seen is the fireball whirl, notice how I mean JUST the fireballs. That's because the whirl and dicing whirl moves are useless garbage that waste your mp. Said fireballs (sets of four, which do 150% each) are the only good move the whipmaster has for dealing with enemies, kind of like his arrow hoard or coin shot...or power smash. Problem is, it usually takes around three of these to kill a single scrap bot, and if you combine that with the completely useless whirl abilities you usually waste around 50% of your mp on a single enemy. Not in a fast manner either, these moves are SLOW and inaccurate, ironic considering how the class is supposed to be all about finesse, precision, and BDSM-ing people.
Tornado is not even worth mentioning, 2 second setup and it lasts for like five seconds max, it's garbage.

Now, not only are these moves bad, but they pose a fundamental flaw with the class. The main weapon, the whip, the thing you're supposed to be a MASTER of, is completely useless. Pιss poor damage, pιss poor range, and without a single point in using it over ANY other class. SERIOUSLY, the best move is EXTREMELY CLOSE RANGE, at this point you might aswell go with the warrior, who is actually NOT shιτ now! The whip offers no results, and the only viable move is just pressing b and using the thing that is not a whip...that's not good or fun. Reminder, 210k output, tipper, SONIC BOOOM...good class.

How is it in pvp? Well, it's trash as you can guess, if it can't even kill a scrap bot quickly with it's special moves what makes it able to kill -ZERO- or something? Not only that, but even killing knobs is tough due to how whipmaster lacks an "anti-lag" move. See, homing arrow, coin-shot, storm cloud and ninja slash are all anti-lag moves in the sense that unlike the main mouse moves, they cannot "whiff".
Whipmaster, on the other hand, whiffs almost all the time. You hit a guy with your sonic boom? Too bad, it didn't work. You hit him with fireballs? Those don't do shιτ. The only move I think works against lag is the tornado but- yeah good luck setting up this thing with 2 seconds of delay behind it.

This class is fundamentally bad to it's core, and until yall decide to make sonic boom deal ACTUAL DAMAGE, in the TRIPLE DIGIT LEVELS, yeah it will remain forever terrible and nobody will bother playing it besides knobs who don't know any better.
You want my solution? First make a level 100 whipmaster able to kill scrap bots in two double click tippers, seeing as that's the class's point. If you are precise you will do lots of damage, THAT'S how it should go! Second, make the tornado deployment faster, make them last longer, and limit them to about four at once. Third, HAVE A POINT TO THE WHIRL MOVES, they're garbage...except for fireballs, just make those 200% or add another ball in there. That's legit the only good move, might aswell.

That's my idea of a solution, because, let's be real, this class is shιτ and it has no defenders, the only reason nobody has made this thread is because nobody bothered to see if top levels actually do good damage...which, they don't, this class is pathetic. Enjoy your 15 bucks rob, go get yourself a pizza...I'd kill for a margarita right now.

[CrazyVanilla]

Okay, because nobody else had the balls, I got a stat reset and spent my cash to try out the worst class in the game

I was the first whipmaster when the class first came out (pre shroom warriors and scrap bots however) and lost my shirt trying to sell the gear after switching back for slightly more than bargin bin prices

Anyways, I also recommended a massive damage boost, which ended up turning into a minor boost, but yes, it was actually even weaker at one point. In my opinion which basically aligns with your thoughts here, if you can't 2-3 hit an enemy, the class is useless, so that should be the goal from now on. New enemy is meant for level 70-75's? It should be tested with a level 75 whipmaster to make sure it can 2-3 hit that enemy, because otherwise the class is useless.

Since the whipmaster already shares the "blind tip" skill with warriors, I had originally just recommended the basic rage skill to be added to whipmasters as well, offering a very simple solution and 200% damage boost which should be a lot more fair.

I'm also curious if you tried fighting an enemy like a sentry without 1 tapping it, or even a shroom warrior. Since they move so fast and specifically Sentrys move away from the player, its so hard to actually hit it with a tip hit, yes even harder than hitting a Sentry as a warrior without ninja slash or speed boost, and it drastically lowers the DPS of the class having to constantly adjust your position after each hit. Scrap bots don't move that much which make them fairly easy to hit, similar to a Znake or Gal Roach, but if more fast moving enemies are added that would add another massive problem for the whipmaster, which is where the slight stun mechanic I recommend comes into play.

In other words, in full support for a massive damage buff and possibly other changes to the whipmaster.

[cinos]

Okay, because nobody else had the balls, I got a stat reset and spent my cash to try out the worst class in the game

I was the first whipmaster when the class first came out (pre shroom warriors and scrap bots however) and lost my shirt trying to sell the gear after switching back for slightly more than bargin bin prices

Anyways, I also recommended a massive damage boost, which ended up turning into a minor boost, but yes, it was actually even weaker at one point. In my opinion which basically aligns with your thoughts here, if you can't 2-3 hit an enemy, the class is useless, so that should be the goal from now on. New enemy is meant for level 70-75's? It should be tested with a level 75 whipmaster to make sure it can 2-3 hit that enemy, because otherwise the class is useless.

Since the whipmaster already shares the "blind tip" skill with warriors, I had originally just recommended the basic rage skill to be added to whipmasters as well, offering a very simple solution and 200% damage boost which should be a lot more fair.

I'm also curious if you tried fighting an enemy like a sentry without 1 tapping it, or even a shroom warrior. Since they move so fast and specifically Sentrys move away from the player, its so hard to actually hit it with a tip hit, yes even harder than hitting a Sentry as a warrior without ninja slash or speed boost, and it drastically lowers the DPS of the class having to constantly adjust your position after each hit. Scrap bots don't move that much which make them fairly easy to hit, similar to a Znake or Gal Roach, but if more fast moving enemies are added that would add another massive problem for the whipmaster, which is where the slight stun mechanic I recommend comes into play.

In other words, in full support for a massive damage buff and possibly other changes to the whipmaster.

I actually used the basic tipper with no double click for sentries and bellow, even if that instakills them...it's a sentry, I'm level 102, it shouldn't be the last enemy I can instakill!
Imo if we need to add RAGE we are legit still forgetting the point of the class, we should make it all whipmaster themed, call it "Concentration" or something and have the aura be all circular, going inside you like a void, only boosting your tip damage greatly, while making non tip damage even worse. Like, that way the point is kept, tip damage is great, non tippers are just useless as they already are.

I'm honestly kind of baffled the class launched like this, pretty sure one of the first things to check is that it's not an objective downgrade for LEVEL 102, I will not stop saying this, it's not right for the triple digits to need extra effort for this one class when the exp needed to level up becomes absurd.

[Flashlight237]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't call 2.55x base damage for tip hits WITHOUT Sonic Boom "pee poor;" in fact, Whipmasters outclass base Rage warriors in that regard (2x vs 2.55x). It is literally the strongest class in terms of base attack damage. Skills, yeah, I can understand where it would fall flat.

In my original concept, I had a skill that actually has Whipmasters BDSM-ing players (because they don't do that; I don't understand why)... Basically, it's a passive skill that multiplies damage in PVP. At the time, it would've maxed out at 1.6x PVP damage at 3 skill levels, though thinking about it, 2x PVP damage at 5 skill levels would've worked better in execution since player damage doesn't round up or down all that well. I don't see why Whipmasters don't even have that.

I had an anti-lag skill made, which was, of course, the Snakes. Basically what the snakes would do is home in on foes, grab onto them, and nibble on them. They would be limited in that only a certain amount of snakes can be summoned at a time. They had branches for slowdown and poison traits. Admittedly the poison bit might be a bit too OP in PVP, tho; at least the way I wrote it was.

Now, if I can see how Whipmaster damage is calculated, that would be beneficial for everyone here to know, and I do mean everyone because maybe there is some calculation error that slipped through the cracks. Like, here's how the damage boosts were written down in the skill tree.:

Tip Boost: +40%; 1.4x
Enchanted Tip: +100%; 2x
Blind Tip: +35%; 1.35x

Which should've amounted to a total of 3.78x extra tip damage on top of 1.75x tip damage (for a total of 6.615x tip damage, wow!), but I wound up stopping at 2.55x tip damage.

Basically, my way of fixing Whipmaster amounts to the following.:

1. Fix the Tip Damage calculation error
2. Add the snakes in.
3. Add the PVP passive I originally came up with in.
4. Maybe that extra-crit passive? Idk.

PS. Don't ask me why the thing in the middle didn't happen here, cuz I ain't got a clue:

[Sadomasoquista]

Okay, because nobody else had the balls, I got a stat reset and spent my cash to try out the worst class in the game

I'm also curious if you tried fighting an enemy like a sentry without 1 tapping it, or even a shroom warrior. Since they move so fast and specifically Sentrys move away from the player, its so hard to actually hit it with a tip hit, yes even harder than hitting a Sentry as a warrior without ninja slash or speed boost, and it drastically lowers the DPS of the class having to constantly adjust your position after each hit. Scrap bots don't move that much which make them fairly easy to hit, similar to a Znake or Gal Roach, but if more fast moving enemies are added that would add another massive problem for the whipmaster, which is where the slight stun mechanic I recommend comes into play.

In other words, in full support for a massive damage buff and possibly other changes to the whipmaster.

i agree, that whipsmaster needs more damage but i managed to fight the enemies you say.
is not that hard, Sentry stop for moment to shoot you, so you can attack them in that moment, Shroom warrior, are slower than you running if you time it well you can kill them, or just use a tornado and force them to receive the damage, and for the cube bots those are really hard to kill, speacilly since they teleport for the server lag.

But other point is that non tip hits, doesn't do damage, wich force you to always do tip-hits (this i explained it in other post). the first passive, reduce the damage of your skills since some of them are bassed on non-tip hits, The second passive is a copy of a warrior passive, wich for whipmaster is pretty uselless, since there are better classes to be a glass canon and ,unlike the warrior, whipmaster doesn't have insane amounts of damage.

[cinos]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't call 2.55x base damage for tip hits WITHOUT Sonic Boom "pee poor;" in fact, Whipmasters outclass base Rage warriors in that regard (2x vs 2.55x). It is literally the strongest class in terms of base attack damage. Skills, yeah, I can understand where it would fall flat.

In my original concept, I had a skill that actually has Whipmasters BDSM-ing players (because they don't do that; I don't understand why)... Basically, it's a passive skill that multiplies damage in PVP. At the time, it would've maxed out at 1.6x PVP damage at 3 skill levels, though thinking about it, 2x PVP damage at 5 skill levels would've worked better in execution since player damage doesn't round up or down all that well. I don't see why Whipmasters don't even have that.

I had an anti-lag skill made, which was, of course, the Snakes. Basically what the snakes would do is home in on foes, grab onto them, and nibble on them. They would be limited in that only a certain amount of snakes can be summoned at a time. They had branches for slowdown and poison traits. Admittedly the poison bit might be a bit too OP in PVP, tho; at least the way I wrote it was.

Now, if I can see how Whipmaster damage is calculated, that would be beneficial for everyone here to know, and I do mean everyone because maybe there is some calculation error that slipped through the cracks. Like, here's how the damage boosts were written down in the skill tree.:

Tip Boost: +40%; 1.4x
Enchanted Tip: +100%; 2x
Blind Tip: +35%; 1.35x

Which should've amounted to a total of 3.78x extra tip damage on top of 1.75x tip damage (for a total of 6.615x tip damage, wow!), but I wound up stopping at 2.55x tip damage.

Basically, my way of fixing Whipmaster amounts to the following.:

1. Fix the Tip Damage calculation error
2. Add the snakes in.
3. Add the PVP passive I originally came up with in.
4. Maybe that extra-crit passive? Idk.

PS. Don't ask me why the thing in the middle didn't happen here, cuz I ain't got a clue:

I don't exactly care if whipmasters "technically" do more "base" damage than warriors, their stupid gimmick of being the precise class has no advantages and is generally slower and weaker than every other class. Anyone can say he's "technically" extremely powerful because he can do 210k raw damage...but that is literally when the stars allign, with most other shots being pathetically mundane.
Also if you need to add a passive "this class does objectively better damage in pvp" then you already kind of failed in the class department since at that point, as I have said in the past, the class just becomes a jumble of stat boosts to compensate for the flawed concept. Add the snakes, yes, but ALSO make the other skills NOT garbage, and make the supposed damage output ACTUALLY SHOW instead of being an empty number that doesn't matter once you actually use the stupid whip.
Seriously, such high numbers shouldn't produce such lackluster results, ESPECIALLY when compared to the results of the other classes!

[Flashlight237]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't call 2.55x base damage for tip hits WITHOUT Sonic Boom "pee poor;" in fact, Whipmasters outclass base Rage warriors in that regard (2x vs 2.55x). It is literally the strongest class in terms of base attack damage. Skills, yeah, I can understand where it would fall flat.

In my original concept, I had a skill that actually has Whipmasters BDSM-ing players (because they don't do that; I don't understand why)... Basically, it's a passive skill that multiplies damage in PVP. At the time, it would've maxed out at 1.6x PVP damage at 3 skill levels, though thinking about it, 2x PVP damage at 5 skill levels would've worked better in execution since player damage doesn't round up or down all that well. I don't see why Whipmasters don't even have that.

I had an anti-lag skill made, which was, of course, the Snakes. Basically what the snakes would do is home in on foes, grab onto them, and nibble on them. They would be limited in that only a certain amount of snakes can be summoned at a time. They had branches for slowdown and poison traits. Admittedly the poison bit might be a bit too OP in PVP, tho; at least the way I wrote it was.

Now, if I can see how Whipmaster damage is calculated, that would be beneficial for everyone here to know, and I do mean everyone because maybe there is some calculation error that slipped through the cracks. Like, here's how the damage boosts were written down in the skill tree.:

Tip Boost: +40%; 1.4x
Enchanted Tip: +100%; 2x
Blind Tip: +35%; 1.35x

Which should've amounted to a total of 3.78x extra tip damage on top of 1.75x tip damage (for a total of 6.615x tip damage, wow!), but I wound up stopping at 2.55x tip damage.

Basically, my way of fixing Whipmaster amounts to the following.:

1. Fix the Tip Damage calculation error
2. Add the snakes in.
3. Add the PVP passive I originally came up with in.
4. Maybe that extra-crit passive? Idk.

PS. Don't ask me why the thing in the middle didn't happen here, cuz I ain't got a clue:

I don't exactly care if whipmasters "technically" do more "base" damage than warriors, their stupid gimmick of being the precise class has no advantages and is generally slower and weaker than every other class. Anyone can say he's "technically" extremely powerful because he can do 210k raw damage...but that is literally when the stars allign, with most other shots being pathetically mundane.
Also if you need to add a passive "this class does objectively better damage in pvp" then you already kind of failed in the class department since at that point, as I have said in the past, the class just becomes a jumble of stat boosts to compensate for the flawed concept. Add the snakes, yes, but ALSO make the other skills NOT garbage, and make the supposed damage output ACTUALLY SHOW instead of being an empty number that doesn't matter once you actually use the stupid whip.
Seriously, such high numbers shouldn't produce such lackluster results, ESPECIALLY when compared to the results of the other classes!

Hey hey hey hey hey, look. Try not to attack me, I'm just trying my best, okay? I'm just here to try and explain where the class shines and what I think it could use work on. Like, bro. What issues did Marth or the Home Run Bat have when the tipper mechanic was put into them? Like seriously, answer that to me, the guy who wanted the tipper mechanic to be far less extreme in his original concept than what is actually in the game. I'm not trying to hurt you, I just want to know.

Also, again, you forgot the actual inspiration I had behind the PVP stat boost, which again is far different from my earlier, admittedly-silly intent to give every class PVP-exclusive skills. Think about it, would it actually be cool for whippy-bois to dominate other people, be it "that way" or not?

I know your main concern is how iffy damage is, and quite frankly, that's what I wanna figure out too. Don't take that as me going against you, as I'm quite frankly on the same boat in that regard. Okay?

[Sadomasoquista]

1) Long chanelling time.
i thought this was for avoid being spammed, but if you want to avoid skill spam just add cooldown. There are more powerfull skills with no chanelling so i don't understand this. The fact you can't move while channeling is makes you too vulnerable. Unlike the ninja slash for warrior, since them can tank more and also deal more damage.

2) The range is too low.

Wtf, enemies don't even get affected by tornado unless they're really close, making it very easy to dodge.

3) The atraction power is too weak.

If an enemy is too big or fast, they will just walk away of the tornado like nothing happened, and if catch 3 or 2 enemies in a way they cannot escape, they will just push themselves out with their hitboxes.

4) Tornado softlock the game.

I Think this is not only for the tornado, also happened to me with the drone skill (when it shooted really fast by a bug), but basically if you use tornado too much (not only by spamming it just by using it like 50 times or more) , the game will start to lag and eventually softlock, wich is makes the skills a 0 the left.

5) If you uprade the first passive of WM, The tornado will do less damage

This is becasue the area damage is based on non-tip hit, and the first passive reduce that damage. Orbs will only do damage if the target are literally in the center of the tornado, and will only hit one at a time.

[Robby]

A bit late to this topic, but I wanted to note that I will have buffs to nearly all of the whipmaster's skills and such in the coming update. If there are still any issues after the update, just let me know here. I think the buffs will help whipmasters a good bit.

Today I'm also working on adding another skill or two for them, which should hopefully help as well.

[masnam]

A bit late to this topic, but I wanted to note that I will have buffs to nearly all of the whipmaster's skills and such in the coming update. If there are still any issues after the update, just let me know here. I think the buffs will help whipmasters a good bit.

Today I'm also working on adding another skill or two for them, which should hopefully help as well.

buffing skills won't help. It's the base mechanic that needs to be changed. I think flashlights suggestion for the tip multiplier is good