Something about all classes.

[GeraltOfRivia]

Since it looks like we are gonna face some game balancing soon i think that few ideas could be acurate to implement in near future. Most players at this point can see huge differences between classes so i guess few changes are necessary.Also warrior as the only class at this point in most skills gets something for something.
1.Lets start with most OP class which is mage.
a)Storm cloud had been nerfed which is good but still anyone who upgraded this skill can easily kill most mobs so its power and range also should be nerfed a bit. As a sacrifice for using this skill she should loose either a bit of deffence or speed.
b) Protection field-this skill is passive and active(heal and attack at the same time) so basically mage is almost unkillable in PVP right now and can simply camp any place, spamming heal and skill. I think that using it should cost a bit more MP, few seconds cooldown and for sure some speed loss.
Other skills can stay as they are at this point.
2. Next one is archer-previous most OP class but his skills are the best for farming and grinding.
a)arrow hoard-this one for sure needs to be nerfed even by 50%- he can kill auroch beetle within one shot.
b)razor guard needs to be nerfed with its damage-each leaf deals 18% of base damage so in total you need only 6 of them to kill a mob, while when it is maxed really a lot of them are spinning around you, doing all the job for you. Also this should slow him down a bit as a sacrifice.
3. Gunman.
If it goes about him he don't have many skills, but his shooting speed gives him advantage over all other classes both in PVP and normal areas, so some of planned skils should cost either speed movement loss defence loss or shooting speed per min.
4. Warrior.
At this point you can ask anyone in the game about this class and you will hear one thing-warrior is the worst class. Why?
because of most his skills. Eccept power smash in every skill branch to get some buff he have to sacrifise either defence or speed, while he really needs a buff on those two. To be able to compete with other classes he should be even 2x faster than others-getting toward every enemy to kill it takes time while everyone else can do it from far away, not to mention using long lasting skills that leaves 0% chances to compete with them. Also walking close to every enemy you are not proof, as a need to kill it, might cost you some HP.

Another thing that should be balanced is in my opinion usage of hardening stones. At first they only gives only few additional defence point so on low sets they are usefull, but for best and expensive ones are useless, because price to use them is too high. F.e if upgrade cost around 1/3 of part price it shoud buff its defence with similar number, not few points only.

Final note: Even now i can imagine( almost hear) some of you(players) whining not to do any of what i said here-feel free to comment, i'm not gonna be complaining about your SIMP and selfish behaviour.

Some thing have to be done to partially equal all classes.

[*TGFD*]

not sure about more nerf in mage ^^

[masnam]

I support these.

[GeraltOfRivia]

not sure about more nerf in mage ^^

Said by mage.

[CrazyVanilla]

I support changing protection field for mage in pvp only perhaps it just shouldn't work in pvp, and I also support a change to arrow horde, I like the one that Flashlight suggested.

Storm cloud was already nerfed enough, It does not need another nerf. Mages use A LOT of MP when using any of their skills, and even when just normal attacking it uses mp. That is a big enough trade off as you need to spend much more money on food to heal AND need to invest more stat points into MP.

Razor guard does not need to be nerfed, it costs quite a bit of mp to use when its maxed and it requires you to get up close to the mobs and therefor have high defense, which archer has the least amount of defense out of every class (its only a good skill right now because the mobs are so weak archers can tank them).

Cowboy is fine as it is really, it just needs more skills. Certainly not a nerf.

I don't see why any class (including warrior) should receive lowered defense or speed, that doesn't seem like a good solution to anything. Firstly, speed is already too slow, running around the map and even running around to grind is by far one of the most annoying things IMO because running is so slow. I don't get what the point is to decrease defense and speed including on warrior, I don't think that should be a thing at all. I am well aware that warrior is the worst class currently, however if you compare each class to each other there will always be a "worst class". Each class ideally serves a different purpose, comparing them to each other does not make sense at all, its comparing apples to oranges to milk to potato chips in a sense, they are all completely different. The problem is not warrior being bad, its the game being bad for warrior. Like I said each class ideally serves a different purpose, the purpose for warrior has not been implemented into the game, which is why it's the "worst class". Warrior is supposed to be high defense high attack power in exchange for close range attacks, which is useless in the game currently because all the mobs except for beetles (which are not even good to grind anyway) are extremely weak, and the defense formula is wack where warriors can't even be beetle proof. So IMO does warrior deserve some buffs? Yeah they do, but it doesn't mean other classes need to get nerfs just because warriors don't have a place in the game yet.

Also I agree with balancing hardening stones, they are useless right now for high level gear.

[GeraltOfRivia]

I support changing protection field for mage in pvp only perhaps it just shouldn't work in pvp, and I also support a change to arrow horde, I like the one that Flashlight suggested.

Storm cloud was already nerfed enough, It does not need another nerf. Mages use A LOT of MP when using any of their skills, and even when just normal attacking it uses mp. That is a big enough trade off as you need to spend much more money on food to heal AND need to invest more stat points into MP.

Razor guard does not need to be nerfed, it costs quite a bit of mp to use when its maxed and it requires you to get up close to the mobs and therefor have high defense, which archer has the least amount of defense out of every class (its only a good skill right now because the mobs are so weak archers can tank them).

Cowboy is fine as it is really, it just needs more skills. Certainly not a nerf.

I don't see why any class (including warrior) should receive lowered defense or speed, that doesn't seem like a good solution to anything. Firstly, speed is already too slow, running around the map and even running around to grind is by far one of the most annoying things IMO because running is so slow. I don't get what the point is to decrease defense and speed including on warrior, I don't think that should be a thing at all. I am well aware that warrior is the worst class currently, however if you compare each class to each other there will always be a "worst class". Each class ideally serves a different purpose, comparing them to each other does not make sense at all, its comparing apples to oranges to milk to potato chips in a sense, they are all completely different. The problem is not warrior being bad, its the game being bad for warrior. Like I said each class ideally serves a different purpose, the purpose for warrior has not been implemented into the game, which is why it's the "worst class". Warrior is supposed to be high defense high attack power in exchange for close range attacks, which is useless in the game currently because all the mobs except for beetles (which are not even good to grind anyway) are extremely weak, and the defense formula is wack where warriors can't even be beetle proof. So IMO does warrior deserve some buffs? Yeah they do, but it doesn't mean other classes need to get nerfs just because warriors don't have a place in the game yet.

Also I agree with balancing hardening stones, they are useless right now for high level gear.

Main thing in all of it is as for now why only warrior beeing worst class to choose lose something to get something? Every other class with each new skill gets only cool perks without sacrifying anything but MP, while warrior to get more power or defence loose speed or defence-it should be a thing for all classes or for none of them . As for you said i perfectly know that there will always be one worst class but currently the difference in grinding/farming and PVP is just way to big.

[CrazyVanilla]

Main thing in all of it is as for now why only warrior beeing worst class to choose lose something to get something? Every other class with each new skill gets only cool perks without sacrifying anything but MP, while warrior to get more power or defence loose speed or defence-it should be a thing for all classes or for none of them . As for you said i perfectly know that there will always be one worst class but currently the difference in grinding/farming and PVP is just way to big.

I agree, I don't think it should be a thing for warriors either. Since warrior is supposed to be high defense and high attack, those skills should only give passive buffs with no debuffs (maybe the amounts need to be adjusted since there will be no debuff to prevent it from being TOO much).

[Flashlight237]

I'm gonna address these the best I can.

Mage

Okay, while I personally don't agree with making Storm Cloud a trade-off skill (why would anyone do that to any basic thunder spell?), I have no qualms against a damage nerf. I'd like the range to be kept since, well, Storm Cloud was meant to be a crowd control skill. Of course it already had the lowest DPS rating out of any attack in the game, with only 0.6x a mage's base DPS (mages have the same attack rate as warriors: 120 hits/minute with one weapon and 192 hits/minute with two). Magic Breath has better DPS than Storm Cloud.

I wholly agree with Protection Field. Just base Protection Field (1100 HP and 30% defense) is equal to a mage with 330 HP. 330 HP! Defensive field can raise that relative HP value to 555!

Of course it went without saying that the high HP values are relics of a time when literally anything can annihilate Protection Field. Here's about how I would set it up.

Name: Protection Field
Base HP: 120
Base Defense: 12%
HP Increase per Skill Level: 30
Defense Increase per Skill Level: 2%

Name: Defensive Field
Base Size Increase: 25% (same as before)
Base HP Increase: 40
Size Increase per Skill Level: 25%
HP Increase per Skill Level: 30

That should bring Protection Field down to a more manageable 48 relative HP (240 HP and 20% defense) and Defensive Field to a more manageable 80 relative HP (400 HP and 20% defense). Strike the issue right in the heart of the issue, I say. No need for any other tradeoffs. And yes, I'm sure there could be a better option for PVP, like halving Protection Field's defense in PVP only, but it's better to focus on the archaic relic of a stat; to me at least.

Archer

A damage nerf on Arrow Hoard? Really? That's your idea? PSH! Weak! THIS is how you nerf Arrow Hoard.:

Arrow Hoard:

Currently as it stands, Arrow Hoard has the highest skill-to-base DPS rating in the game. A full arrow hoard, combined with a full sharp hoard, deals 10.5x an archer's base DPS (arrow hoard matches an archer's base attack rate of 132 attacks/minute). That's higher than full Power Smash combined with full base Rage for Warriors, which would sit at 6x a warrior's base DPS (Power Smash was calculated to have 90 hits/minute through much testing, which is lower than 120 hits/minute for a warrior's regular attack). Of course the DPS comes with the trade-off of having to get up close to an enemy, but that doesn't really mean anything when an archer's range is nine sidewalk blocks, allowing them to keep their distance from any enemy they wish. Man, I need to make some sniper monsters.

One archer had stated that Arrow Hoard was meant to be a crowd control skill. I'd say let's give it that quality by having the skill spread horizontally as opposed to vertically like it currently does. That way it would actually work for crowd control.

As for spam-proofing, I have an idea on how it would work. As Blind Hit and Storm Cloud were reworked for viability purposes, I figured, let's try a viability-based rework for Arrow Hoard as well. Here's how it will work.:

Arrow Hoard will be a dynamically-charged skill. What this means is Arrow Hoard will only fire off its maximum arrow count when fully charged, but it will also fire off a certain amount of arrows depending on how long you've held the B key for. This will reset each and every time you use the skill. How long will you have to charge the skill up? Well, about 0.3 seconds, or 18 frames, for each extra arrow you wanna shoot. For example...

1 Arrow: No charging
2 Arrows: 0.3 seconds
3 Arrows: 0.6 seconds
4 Arrows: 0.9 seconds
5 Arrows: 1.2 seconds
6 Arrows: 1.5 seconds

Of course archers will have a hissy-fit if they waste 10 MP on one lousy arrow, so how about this? Make the skill use 2 MP for every extra arrow you fire out. This formula would provide a more mathematical explanation of what I mean.:

Arrow Hoard MP Cost=2*(Arrows Fired-1)

See? More manageable, huh? Of course that will make Sharp Hoard weirder to utilize. I think the ideal way to fix any worries about the issues with Sharp Hoard that could result from a more dynamic Arrow Hoard would be to increase Arrow Hoard's cost to 3 per arrow, but at the same time making Sharp Hoard a passive that doesn't increase MP cost whatsoever. Of course that will take a bit more experimenting on paper, but that's my best idea for now since skill MP usage doesn't follow the ax+b formula yet.

Oh yeah! The ax+b formula! This is what I mean by it.

Skill MP Cost: ax+b; a=skill levels after Level 1, x=MP increase, b=base MP cost

Implementing ax+b would allow Arrow Hoard to work like this:

Base Arrow Hoard: 2 MP per arrow
With Sharp Hoard or Cupid Hoard: 3 MP per arrow
With BOTH Sharp Hoard and Cupid Hoard: 4 MP per arrow

That'll make balancing out Arrow Hoard and all its branches much easier to do.

Of course a Max Arrow Hoard with Sharp Hoard would reduce the DPS from 10.5 DPS down to 3.181818, so... How about a tiny buff for Sharp Hoard in exchange? Let's say... 20% increased damage per level instead of 15%? That way, the DPS decrease would instead go from 10.5x base DPS to a more manageable 3.636363x base DPS. That should make it less broken but still viable.

Leaf Guard? Eh, not sure about that one. I mean Leaf Guard is more of a contact skill.

Gunman

People just flat out ignore Coin Shot for some reason even though Coin Shot + Pellet Spitter is perhaps the deadliest skill DPS-wise. Really, 5 coins per shot is only going to deter noobs from using it; 5 coins mean nothing when you can fight against Scorpees and the like.

I also wrote out how Grenade should be handled.:

Grenade:

This one's an odd skill. It has the highest base damage for any skill, at 9x base damage at maximum level. It also branches out to Multi-Grenade, which allows you to throw 3 grenades at once. I haven't seen any gunman try and use the skill out in the field, with their main reason for not using it being cumbersome aiming (you throw grenades by walking... What?). Aside from that, grenades can be thrown at a rate of 90 per minute if one were to repeatedly press the B key.

Reworking this skill will feature both a buff AND a nerf. For the buff, I will recommend improving the aiming of a grenade. Magic Breath did skill-aiming just right, so I would base Grenade's aiming mechanic off Magic Breath's aiming mechanic.

However, to prevent grenade spamming, I will suggest a cooldown. Grenades sit idly for 2.5 seconds at a time (I checked) before exploding. As such, I will recommend a 2.5 second cooldown before a gunman can throw another grenade (or three if they got full multi-grenade).

Also, Men in Black flash camera pens dammit!: https://eliatopia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3071

Warrior

I mean there was supposed to be an increased mobility rage that would fall under Cautious Rage's branch. Dunno when that's gonna be added in yet.

Aside from that, people still refuse to acknowledge the main benefit of being close-quarters. You know how the early bird gets the worm? Well, when you're a warrior and you kill a mob, you ALWAYS get the loot. (That being said, I've seen many archers being complacent because they think they can always laze around and stay in one place with their homing arrows and crap like that. I say loot their butts so they start thinking about cleaning up after themselves).

I do think Blind Hit can be minorly buffed; just from 9% damage increase to 10% damage increase per skill level will do. I just like more well-rounded numbers. As for fitness, I think it would benefit from having two more levels, at the cost of having its HP increase per skill level being bumped down to 14 HP per level (for a total of +70 HP and +35% speed at Level 5).

And no, you don't need to be proof of anything as damage is an integral component in any RPG; it's just an added bonus for putting points into defense and upgrading your armor. It makes them more challenging. Besides, monsters reacting to getting damaged (aka Hit Stun) is a thing in the desktop version, which makes avoiding damage easier.

Personally, I think a more meaningful buff would be having Hardening Stones target all the other stat points when upgrading armor. This would affect accessories the most, but I think it would work for any other armor.

And yes, I do plan on doing flails for warriors, which I feel would mandate a range extension to account for the squash-and-stretch animation needed for them.

[Jakub34]

If I remember storm cloud correctly, it pretty much instantly hits enemies. I remember talking about this a year ago how this skill would eventually be broken, and it looks like that happened. My two ideas are either to give it a lock-on time to an enemy, so it does not attack instantly, or turn it into a ranged skill. Personally, I really dislike the skill. I see mage as a class that should be ranged, and most of its spells should be ranged based. Instead of having to walk up to a target and using the skill, you should be able to throw a bolt of lighting somewhere instead. You can't really spam it, because it would be costly, and secondly, there's a good chance your kill would be stolen if you tried to use it. What's good though is that you can use it afar, so you are safe (well not really because of the defense stat which kinda ruins everything and makes every class about equal in tankieness) and you can clear out a group of enemies easily. I think part of the bigger issue here and with other skills is that no cooldowns exist.

As for archer, I think it needs a nerf in attack speed. It attacks way too quickly, and it doesn't have to be near an enemy, so warriors and mages are basically screwed. (Unless a wizard uses storm cloud) It's faster attack speed also allows arrow hoard to be completely broken, because you can fire endless waves of 5 arrows that do x1.75 damage each if you have the skill. Personally, I would remove that skill in the first place, because there's no need for a player getting that much more damage, and secondly, I would nerf arrow hoard down to 3.

For gunman, I can't think of much other than weapon power really needs to be taken into consideration when making the rate of fire. If a weapon fires really fast, then it should be really weak, but still enough to actually do damage to enemies. If you give it a fast firing weapon and the gunman's damage is about equal to every other class, then it is just easily going to dominate over every class.

Warrior is in a weird spot, because it is definitely broken, but you really never get to see it, because everything gets killed before warrior can reach it. (Except the beetles and bosses) I'm fairly certain these bonuses stack multiplicatively instead of additively, so they get big pretty quickly. Blind rage isn't something you need to max out, so you can get a lot more damage without having to get up too much defense, and lifeless/near death crush can easily be abused, since it isn't too difficult take very little damage to enemies, especially as a warrior.

I think what really throws everything off is how easy everything can be killed, because of having permanent x4 damage. If expertise were to be nerfed, I think everything would fall into place better, but as I've already said, the damage formula would need a change too.

[GeraltOfRivia]

A damage nerf on Arrow Hoard? Really? That's your idea? PSH! Weak! THIS is how you nerf Arrow Hoard.:

Arrow Hoard:

Currently as it stands, Arrow Hoard has the highest skill-to-base DPS rating in the game. A full arrow hoard, combined with a full sharp hoard, deals 10.5x an archer's base DPS (arrow hoard matches an archer's base attack rate of 132 attacks/minute). That's higher than full Power Smash combined with full base Rage for Warriors, which would sit at 6x a warrior's base DPS (Power Smash was calculated to have 90 hits/minute through much testing, which is lower than 120 hits/minute for a warrior's regular attack). Of course the DPS comes with the trade-off of having to get up close to an enemy, but that doesn't really mean anything when an archer's range is nine sidewalk blocks, allowing them to keep their distance from any enemy they wish. Man, I need to make some sniper monsters.

One archer had stated that Arrow Hoard was meant to be a crowd control skill. I'd say let's give it that quality by having the skill spread horizontally as opposed to vertically like it currently does. That way it would actually work for crowd control.

As for spam-proofing, I have an idea on how it would work. As Blind Hit and Storm Cloud were reworked for viability purposes, I figured, let's try a viability-based rework for Arrow Hoard as well. Here's how it will work.:

Arrow Hoard will be a dynamically-charged skill. What this means is Arrow Hoard will only fire off its maximum arrow count when fully charged, but it will also fire off a certain amount of arrows depending on how long you've held the B key for. This will reset each and every time you use the skill. How long will you have to charge the skill up? Well, about 0.3 seconds, or 18 frames, for each extra arrow you wanna shoot. For example...

1 Arrow: No charging
2 Arrows: 0.3 seconds
3 Arrows: 0.6 seconds
4 Arrows: 0.9 seconds
5 Arrows: 1.2 seconds
6 Arrows: 1.5 seconds

Of course archers will have a hissy-fit if they waste 10 MP on one lousy arrow, so how about this? Make the skill use 2 MP for every extra arrow you fire out. This formula would provide a more mathematical explanation of what I mean.:

Arrow Hoard MP Cost=2*(Arrows Fired-1)

See? More manageable, huh? Of course that will make Sharp Hoard weirder to utilize. I think the ideal way to fix any worries about the issues with Sharp Hoard that could result from a more dynamic Arrow Hoard would be to increase Arrow Hoard's cost to 3 per arrow, but at the same time making Sharp Hoard a passive that doesn't increase MP cost whatsoever. Of course that will take a bit more experimenting on paper, but that's my best idea for now since skill MP usage doesn't follow the ax+b formula yet.

Oh yeah! The ax+b formula! This is what I mean by it.

Skill MP Cost: ax+b; a=skill levels after Level 1, x=MP increase, b=base MP cost

Implementing ax+b would allow Arrow Hoard to work like this:

Base Arrow Hoard: 2 MP per arrow
With Sharp Hoard or Cupid Hoard: 3 MP per arrow
With BOTH Sharp Hoard and Cupid Hoard: 4 MP per arrow

That'll make balancing out Arrow Hoard and all its branches much easier to do.

Of course a Max Arrow Hoard with Sharp Hoard would reduce the DPS from 10.5 DPS down to 3.181818, so... How about a tiny buff for Sharp Hoard in exchange? Let's say... 20% increased damage per level instead of 15%? That way, the DPS decrease would instead go from 10.5x base DPS to a more manageable 3.636363x base DPS. That should make it less broken but still viable.

First thing-don't be rude by saying my option is weak-it's just easiest way to nerf it. With arrow hoard archer can kill beatle same as i can kill it with power smash while his skill cost half MP as mine when maxed. Also charging sounds kinda similar to HH with some diferences, but still would be good way to change it.

Warrior

I mean there was supposed to be an increased mobility rage that would fall under Cautious Rage's branch. Dunno when that's gonna be added in yet.

Aside from that, people still refuse to acknowledge the main benefit of being close-quarters. You know how the early bird gets the worm? Well, when you're a warrior and you kill a mob, you ALWAYS get the loot. (That being said, I've seen many archers being complacent because they think they can always laze around and stay in one place with their homing arrows and crap like that. I say loot their butts so they start thinking about cleaning up after themselves).

I do think Blind Hit can be minorly buffed; just from 9% damage increase to 10% damage increase per skill level will do. I just like more well-rounded numbers. As for fitness, I think it would benefit from having two more levels, at the cost of having its HP increase per skill level being bumped down to 14 HP per level (for a total of +70 HP and +35% speed at Level 5).

And no, you don't need to be proof of anything as damage is an integral component in any RPG; it's just an added bonus for putting points into defense and upgrading your armor. It makes them more challenging. Besides, monsters reacting to getting damaged (aka Hit Stun) is a thing in the desktop version, which makes avoiding damage easier.

Personally, I think a more meaningful buff would be having Hardening Stones target all the other stat points when upgrading armor. This would affect accessories the most, but I think it would work for any other armor.

And yes, I do plan on doing flails for warriors, which I feel would mandate a range extension to account for the squash-and-stretch animation needed for them.

Yeah sure i'm gonna keep running around and loot some nubs-great idea, if they don't collect it-not my problem. Instead i would like to be able to kill even 40% of mobs by myself(with one other player nearby ofc) to gain lvl not only money-how could i spend skill and stat points if i can't lvl up? About hardening as its name says it harden something-makes it more tough, not more powerfull so no need to explain it more.
But still i apreciate effort to answer.