Why poison is fundamental for balance (and the PVP spectrum)
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:46 pm
I think it's important to make a whole new thread because of how different the other one is. I've had several experiments done, before and after poison zone became a forum topic, that needed to be split into several threads. Ignore all the other ones for now, since this dwelves into a fundamental triangle of PVP balance for the game, which I feel needs to be discussed. Essentially compared to either hating or praising zone, I want to explain the funamentals for why things are the way they are, and perhaps admit some falsehoods. Note, not the ones you'd think.
Poison exists to purely take away HP, and so it does not rely on defense at all. This is why it exists, it counters hard defense and high HP builds, ala Warrior, but also other things that have practically unbeatable defense, like Wizard bubble. Albeit it's probably a tad bit weak rn due to the HP not having been updated, not any elemental buffs or nerfs existing for it, but alas this is what poison counters now. Every class benefits from it, which is why it was the first rune implemented, and why it is the earliest, it's just that a fast or instantaneous rpm is more effective (Gunman, Archer, Mage melee sometimes, Note how gunman requires more zone due to the lack of soft, plus the addition of rune resistances).
Soft damage does depend on defense, which is how it counters High HP builds for classes of lower defense. Whipmaster and Gunman mainly, since they are builds that primarily focus on either high damage or high consistency of fire. They can hypothetically be countered by ice, but the rune resistances kind of make ice itself negligent, since it only does like an 8% dent. This is because it was definitely supposed to be the new "balance rune", and placed even earlier on the map, but the whole concept of rune defense made lowering one's defense a non-skill, since everyone has i5 on everything they wear. It practically barely does anything against players, though it does help with the peak damages.
also fire is really fvcking good on two handed weapons due to the multiplier being singular??? It's really good?!?!??!
Both of these counter High damage and low Vitality builds, aka low defense and low HP for the significant damage boost. These are primarily archer based, though basically any class other than Gunman or Wizard can effectively use these. The caveat is that this type of build can hypothetically also fight back against both, a complete glass cannon with no true weakness, due to everything being equally dangerous. This is why they are primarily also effective in grinding.
Okay but why though?
In a very standard MMO, I'm talking from oldschool to new shovelware, builds are as basic as "you are a higher level, you are stronger, you have more defense and attack". This makes it easy to program, but absolutely impossible to actually balance without unique skills. This is obviously where runes come in place. Poison exists to widen the gap with players, which means it won't be as simple as "I am ten levels below, I am completely fvcked". No, it is "I have less stat points, I am weaker, but I can use my weaponry and skills to my advantage". This is how warrior is the least versatile, since his whole concept is raw strength, completely. He depends on maximum defense and strength, and he is actively made slower to increase those so he can dodge less. It is sacrificing versatility for raw performance. Whipmaster is almost the opposite of this, as he requires extreme precision. Sure, you can sacrifice defense, but that just proves the point that it's a class fully built on maneuverability and creative usage of skill combos. Notice which one of these classes uses more poison.
Gunman is similar in this sense, you are faster, you essentially rely on poison for major damage in pvp, and everything is a trap that requires extreme precision (zone, clamps, grenades themselves). You are faster, therefore weaker, but if you are creative enough, you can out maneuver the enemy and persist. Archer is very much the opposite of this, slower, more focused on raw power with less setup besides homing arrows which do the job for you, bounce arrow is shιτ, it is a class that mostly uses soft damage, though obviously with some focus on technique and less sacrifice in there.
Warriors will require poison to kill, and gunmen will require soft damage to kill. Whipmasters require soft damage, archers will require poison, or just both. It essentially means that the weaker the class physically, the stronger it is setup wise.wink wink, zone takes a while to set up.
What lead me to this conclusion?
Well, I've tried a lot of classes, obviously. Currently I have tried both a completely softless gunman poison build, and a decent fire warrior build. Both of these lent me opposite weaknesses. The gunman build was bound to get overshadowed in numbers easily due to the fixed number, and every enemy was equally as tough to execute. The warrior build is very good with crowds, but it physically cannot go beyond the limits of it's power. I tried it without poison, and while basically able to easily kill any technique class if properly approached, a warrior vs warrior fight depends mostly on critical hits and the ability to stun people, which is impossible with the shield. The caveat for a shield is lesser damage, but it essentially means warrior can't beat another warrior with higher defense and HP without some kind of timing out or...you guessed it, poison. I equipped poison smash and added some poison to the two handed sword, and I went from doing little damage to zero's build, to 200 by default smash. The hardest skill to execute, without any ability to combo due to his shield, but thanks to poison, you can 100% beat it.
Without the poison, it would practically be impossible to counter this as a warrior. A complete inability to reliably attack the enemy, and not so reliable damage (only crits really show something, which is not that good when you are physically unable to attack close most of the time). These kinds of builds cannot be killed by weaker builds of the same manner, thanks to the inability to ever stun them by getting a good close hit, while they can still stun you.
Poison Smash gives you a large enough radius to attack and bypass defense, and alongside the normal sword poison it becomes a significant balancing tool, that sends it from basically barely able to win, to ehhhhh possibly if you try hard enough you'll win.
This is where zone comes in, and this is where other skills that SHOULD get implemented lie. The reason Wizard sucks rn is because it has NO poison outside of the predictable and again, non stunning to shield users melee. Personally I think magic breathe should have some kind of poisonous buff, not the cloud breath, but the main one. This is to legitimize it's usage as anything other than a worse option than melee.
TL;DR?
Poison is required to stop defense builds from conquering the game, and soft damage is required to stop weaker poison builds from doing the same thing. Why do I come to this conclusion? Well, I can reliably kill archers, warriors, and mages alike when using poison gunman weapons like pellet spitter, but I can also reliably stop entire troops of poison spitter gunners by slashing once in close proximity.
and glass cannons so both because they are freaks.
This is a two way dance, and it's required imo. I personally cannot even see the problem with poison as the class who supposedly "can't beat it", really, other def builds are more effective against me rn, and it's why all classes have poison, but some use it more.
The claim that it allows lower level players to beat you with cheaper gear is a frankly misconstrued comment. If you want, go recommend a dual minigun that does double a pellet's rpm, that is only available to the top players. It would be practically unbeatable by lower leveled players, is that what you want really?. Personally, I don't.
Oh and "no artillery" is not an argument because the poison is weaker than any soft damage, for all the defense and HP gained, damage is practically sacrificed. If your concern is the actual classes using it, they gain more damage (personally some impostant damage), but they have a lot less defense and HP. it is the natural cycle of sacrificing certain stats for others, and to pretend it is invalid is intentionally setting the game on a more rigid path. I suppose builds that do god damage with no defense are also broken then, or builds with like 5k HP because poison can't kill it. Please...
plus I'd argue it's overrated, most people who use it aren't that strong against anything with soft damage. It really does require viligant effort to win with exclusively poison guns.
Also I gotta admit, it was probably not a bright idea to call the hoard broken without i5 armor. I still consider rain overkill and probably a better replacement for bounce arrow with different benefits, but that is more due to bounce arrow being a waste of a skill, and it's replacement being probably a versatile opening into archer combos...still not using it though, archer is boring, I'm sorry.
Also shields need a major fvckign rework since I can hypothetically reflect any crit tornado and win by spamming heals. Hello?? Warriors can be completely unstoppable against other warriors if they use a shield??? Personally I can recommend reworks for the shield that make it both more effective, but also more punishing to fail with. It is a discussion for another day, but I don't think complete RNG should determine shields, since all it means is that it will never reflect when you want it, but it WILL always feel cheap to do or be done to. Pretty sure this has been a discussion since reflect got added, and personally I would prefer to see literal nubs outskill my moves, rather than me just standing there, healing, and having a crit slash kill the enemy with no input from me needed.
ya know, make it more like zone? More setup (zone needs grenades), more weaknesses (you also get hurt inside zone), and more satisfying proper usage (W).
That, feel free to talk about it. Personally I wanted a highly detailed thread about the entire pvp spectrum, rather than really basic threads that devolve later on. If you somehow still think poison is bad and that soft damage should be the only true benefactor, well, I can't convince you to make Wizard good either then, because, gee, what IS he missing besides that?
Poison exists to purely take away HP, and so it does not rely on defense at all. This is why it exists, it counters hard defense and high HP builds, ala Warrior, but also other things that have practically unbeatable defense, like Wizard bubble. Albeit it's probably a tad bit weak rn due to the HP not having been updated, not any elemental buffs or nerfs existing for it, but alas this is what poison counters now. Every class benefits from it, which is why it was the first rune implemented, and why it is the earliest, it's just that a fast or instantaneous rpm is more effective (Gunman, Archer, Mage melee sometimes, Note how gunman requires more zone due to the lack of soft, plus the addition of rune resistances).
Soft damage does depend on defense, which is how it counters High HP builds for classes of lower defense. Whipmaster and Gunman mainly, since they are builds that primarily focus on either high damage or high consistency of fire. They can hypothetically be countered by ice, but the rune resistances kind of make ice itself negligent, since it only does like an 8% dent. This is because it was definitely supposed to be the new "balance rune", and placed even earlier on the map, but the whole concept of rune defense made lowering one's defense a non-skill, since everyone has i5 on everything they wear. It practically barely does anything against players, though it does help with the peak damages.
also fire is really fvcking good on two handed weapons due to the multiplier being singular??? It's really good?!?!??!
Both of these counter High damage and low Vitality builds, aka low defense and low HP for the significant damage boost. These are primarily archer based, though basically any class other than Gunman or Wizard can effectively use these. The caveat is that this type of build can hypothetically also fight back against both, a complete glass cannon with no true weakness, due to everything being equally dangerous. This is why they are primarily also effective in grinding.
Okay but why though?
In a very standard MMO, I'm talking from oldschool to new shovelware, builds are as basic as "you are a higher level, you are stronger, you have more defense and attack". This makes it easy to program, but absolutely impossible to actually balance without unique skills. This is obviously where runes come in place. Poison exists to widen the gap with players, which means it won't be as simple as "I am ten levels below, I am completely fvcked". No, it is "I have less stat points, I am weaker, but I can use my weaponry and skills to my advantage". This is how warrior is the least versatile, since his whole concept is raw strength, completely. He depends on maximum defense and strength, and he is actively made slower to increase those so he can dodge less. It is sacrificing versatility for raw performance. Whipmaster is almost the opposite of this, as he requires extreme precision. Sure, you can sacrifice defense, but that just proves the point that it's a class fully built on maneuverability and creative usage of skill combos. Notice which one of these classes uses more poison.
Gunman is similar in this sense, you are faster, you essentially rely on poison for major damage in pvp, and everything is a trap that requires extreme precision (zone, clamps, grenades themselves). You are faster, therefore weaker, but if you are creative enough, you can out maneuver the enemy and persist. Archer is very much the opposite of this, slower, more focused on raw power with less setup besides homing arrows which do the job for you, bounce arrow is shιτ, it is a class that mostly uses soft damage, though obviously with some focus on technique and less sacrifice in there.
Warriors will require poison to kill, and gunmen will require soft damage to kill. Whipmasters require soft damage, archers will require poison, or just both. It essentially means that the weaker the class physically, the stronger it is setup wise.wink wink, zone takes a while to set up.
What lead me to this conclusion?
Well, I've tried a lot of classes, obviously. Currently I have tried both a completely softless gunman poison build, and a decent fire warrior build. Both of these lent me opposite weaknesses. The gunman build was bound to get overshadowed in numbers easily due to the fixed number, and every enemy was equally as tough to execute. The warrior build is very good with crowds, but it physically cannot go beyond the limits of it's power. I tried it without poison, and while basically able to easily kill any technique class if properly approached, a warrior vs warrior fight depends mostly on critical hits and the ability to stun people, which is impossible with the shield. The caveat for a shield is lesser damage, but it essentially means warrior can't beat another warrior with higher defense and HP without some kind of timing out or...you guessed it, poison. I equipped poison smash and added some poison to the two handed sword, and I went from doing little damage to zero's build, to 200 by default smash. The hardest skill to execute, without any ability to combo due to his shield, but thanks to poison, you can 100% beat it.
Without the poison, it would practically be impossible to counter this as a warrior. A complete inability to reliably attack the enemy, and not so reliable damage (only crits really show something, which is not that good when you are physically unable to attack close most of the time). These kinds of builds cannot be killed by weaker builds of the same manner, thanks to the inability to ever stun them by getting a good close hit, while they can still stun you.
Poison Smash gives you a large enough radius to attack and bypass defense, and alongside the normal sword poison it becomes a significant balancing tool, that sends it from basically barely able to win, to ehhhhh possibly if you try hard enough you'll win.
This is where zone comes in, and this is where other skills that SHOULD get implemented lie. The reason Wizard sucks rn is because it has NO poison outside of the predictable and again, non stunning to shield users melee. Personally I think magic breathe should have some kind of poisonous buff, not the cloud breath, but the main one. This is to legitimize it's usage as anything other than a worse option than melee.
TL;DR?
Poison is required to stop defense builds from conquering the game, and soft damage is required to stop weaker poison builds from doing the same thing. Why do I come to this conclusion? Well, I can reliably kill archers, warriors, and mages alike when using poison gunman weapons like pellet spitter, but I can also reliably stop entire troops of poison spitter gunners by slashing once in close proximity.
and glass cannons so both because they are freaks.
This is a two way dance, and it's required imo. I personally cannot even see the problem with poison as the class who supposedly "can't beat it", really, other def builds are more effective against me rn, and it's why all classes have poison, but some use it more.
The claim that it allows lower level players to beat you with cheaper gear is a frankly misconstrued comment. If you want, go recommend a dual minigun that does double a pellet's rpm, that is only available to the top players. It would be practically unbeatable by lower leveled players, is that what you want really?. Personally, I don't.
Oh and "no artillery" is not an argument because the poison is weaker than any soft damage, for all the defense and HP gained, damage is practically sacrificed. If your concern is the actual classes using it, they gain more damage (personally some impostant damage), but they have a lot less defense and HP. it is the natural cycle of sacrificing certain stats for others, and to pretend it is invalid is intentionally setting the game on a more rigid path. I suppose builds that do god damage with no defense are also broken then, or builds with like 5k HP because poison can't kill it. Please...
plus I'd argue it's overrated, most people who use it aren't that strong against anything with soft damage. It really does require viligant effort to win with exclusively poison guns.
Also I gotta admit, it was probably not a bright idea to call the hoard broken without i5 armor. I still consider rain overkill and probably a better replacement for bounce arrow with different benefits, but that is more due to bounce arrow being a waste of a skill, and it's replacement being probably a versatile opening into archer combos...still not using it though, archer is boring, I'm sorry.
Also shields need a major fvckign rework since I can hypothetically reflect any crit tornado and win by spamming heals. Hello?? Warriors can be completely unstoppable against other warriors if they use a shield??? Personally I can recommend reworks for the shield that make it both more effective, but also more punishing to fail with. It is a discussion for another day, but I don't think complete RNG should determine shields, since all it means is that it will never reflect when you want it, but it WILL always feel cheap to do or be done to. Pretty sure this has been a discussion since reflect got added, and personally I would prefer to see literal nubs outskill my moves, rather than me just standing there, healing, and having a crit slash kill the enemy with no input from me needed.
ya know, make it more like zone? More setup (zone needs grenades), more weaknesses (you also get hurt inside zone), and more satisfying proper usage (W).
That, feel free to talk about it. Personally I wanted a highly detailed thread about the entire pvp spectrum, rather than really basic threads that devolve later on. If you somehow still think poison is bad and that soft damage should be the only true benefactor, well, I can't convince you to make Wizard good either then, because, gee, what IS he missing besides that?